Forever Delayed - The Independent Manics Forum  

Go Back   Forever Delayed - The Independent Manics Forum > Manic Street Preachers > Manic Street Preachers Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #736  
Old 21-03-2019, 08:12
Glass Angel Glass Angel is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 206
So... my copy has arrived. First thoughts on flicking through - I wasn’t expecting most of the ‘archive’ to be school essays from 1981. Chosen because of ‘ominous ‘ references to the Severn Bridge. You know, the famous bridge that links Wales and England, and which looms pretty large in the imagination of anyone who lives around the Cardiff area...
Reply With Quote
  #737  
Old 21-03-2019, 19:39
Bryter Layter Bryter Layter is offline
Winterlover
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Hogtown
Posts: 5,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by raven View Post
Hmmmn I still think he knew he wasn't at all bad looking He wasn't averse to the camera But that's not the same as feeling you're worthy of love, the surface is only superficial in many ways. And, I don't know, but so much of his behaviours seemed to be about self control, he might dismiss the not eating as not wanting to put on weight whilst he was drinking so much, doing stupid numbers of press ups etc...it's not vanity that though is it, it's gone way beyond it's a form of self control, trying to reach some sort of ideal....you'll never reach.
I have wondered if being nicknamed Teddy as a kid helped....I'm not saying that's the root cause or assigning blame but just when/if as a child you're made aware of your appearance especially at or around the same time you start to be aware that appearance matters (yep I know it really doesn't but Society doesn't agree....) it can get in your head and take root. Not that that alone would explain everything....or we'd all be in serious trouble ha...but lots of things can come together, tangle up, coincide, get fixed in your head...
He was vain in short but not because he thought he was God's gift to erm fans or something....not that that was entirely about vanity when it opens you up to the kind of people who would offer a set of knives as a gift...how degrading is that. He should have told them to go fuck themselves.

I do think many of us would be much better if we could only learn to say No more often and to say go fuck yourself not quite as often but have that in reserve... and say it loud.....
Yeah, I don't know. All his friends and stuff seem to think it had something to do with him having acne for most of his teen years, but I'm sure there was a lot more to it than just skin issues. It usually is with these kinds of body issues and self hate. The Teddy Edwards thing is interesting though. I'm not British so I don't really know where the reference comes from, but maybe it did have an impact on him at a formative age.

I'm sure he did know that young girls found him attractive and he played that up for his own gain. I'm not excusing that kind of behaviour, just noting that given his negative body image, he may have gotten a boost to his ego from seeing how much these people wanted to be with him. It's also probably a power thing too. I'm sure that plays into it as well because it usually does. Not surprisingly though, the book only mentions groupies a few times and both instances are extremely dismissive (tbh, I'm shocked they were mentioned at all! Lol!). There's also no mention of the young teenage fans he used although she does reference them as groupies (again vague and dismissive) before beginning another tiresome interpretation of one of the songs on THB, this time 'Yes". Speaking of his contact with teenagers, IMO, the most disturbing thing in the book isn't the subtle and sometimes blatant slagging off the band gets, its actually the attempt to normalize and romanticize a relationship between a man in his 20s and a teenage girl he met when she was 15/16. They even go so far as to say, he wanted a relationship so he "kept her on the periphery" when she was 17 (oh! How nice of him! Lol!). I just hope this woman didn't waste her teen years refusing to date other people and just sitting by the phone waiting for him to call or write her a letter. Basically just waiting for him to make up his mind about dating her meanwhile he's sleeping with other people. I mean, I get why they had to include his relationship with her and it's pretty clear that this may have been the only type of romantic relationship he was able to have (it reads like the most significant time they spent in each other's company was for 2 weeks in the fall of '94), but the way the author's have positioned it seems grossly out of touch with what's going on today given the contempt people have for men in positions of power that have and continue to take advantage of vulnerable teens. As a fan, this is the side of Richey I've always found very difficult to reconcile with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosetree View Post
I didn't suggest they were making the band feel responsible for Richey's illness. There were some suggestion about criticising the band about Richey's health in the book? manifesting the problems, though he suffered before joining the band. I read the msppedia articles from 1995, which shed light in interviews, questions and differences from the time.
Oh sorry, it read like you were saying that the author's blamed the band for his issues. No, they don't criticize the band over Richey's health. There's some suggestion that they may have alienated him starting around the time of the Thailand trip, but who's to say he didn't isolate himself from them? I didn't get the sense that the authors or Rachel believed they could have done more for him or anything like that or that his time in the band compounded his problems which was actually surprising to me. Others may have gotten a different impression though. As far as I can tell, the bulk of the issues concerning the band and Richey seem to stem from the belief that he was the leader of the Manics who got them noticed (he 100% did! I don't think anyone least of all the remaining guys would say otherwise), but they grew tired of his "vision" and were starting to pull away from him after THB was recorded and this alienation and desire to move away from their formulaic sound, thus pushing him even further down the ranks, became more apparent after THB was released and was a commercial flop. How much of that is fact or just down to Richey feeling slighted because he was going thorough a psychological crisis, depends on what you choose to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass Angel View Post
So... my copy has arrived. First thoughts on flicking through - I wasn’t expecting most of the ‘archive’ to be school essays from 1981. Chosen because of ‘ominous ‘ references to the Severn Bridge. You know, the famous bridge that links Wales and England, and which looms pretty large in the imagination of anyone who lives around the Cardiff area...
Yep! The "archive" is a massive let down. The letters and pics are great though. And yes, the book is leading and pushing the author's theories left right and centre! Wait unitl you see how many references they make to good old Aunt Bessie. Lol!

Last edited by Bryter Layter; 21-03-2019 at 20:43.
Reply With Quote
  #738  
Old 21-03-2019, 20:09
handbag's Avatar
handbag handbag is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
Richey's drawing of Ace Garp in 2000 AD wasn't the first prize winner of "a nationwide competition". It was that issue's chosen readers art. Not to be picky, but these inaccuracies really do no favours if we're supposed to believe everything written in the book when they're biggin' Richey up as a grand prize winner when he wasn't. (Cute drawing, though!)
Reply With Quote
  #739  
Old 21-03-2019, 21:14
Bryter Layter Bryter Layter is offline
Winterlover
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Hogtown
Posts: 5,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by handbag View Post
Richey's drawing of Ace Garp in 2000 AD wasn't the first prize winner of "a nationwide competition". It was that issue's chosen readers art. Not to be picky, but these inaccuracies really do no favours if we're supposed to believe everything written in the book when they're biggin' Richey up as a grand prize winner when he wasn't. (Cute drawing, though!)
Thanks! I wouldn't have known either way. I noticed a few glaring inaccuracies relating to the band, one in particular involved stating, several times in fact and by various people not involved with the band in any capacity, that the '4 REAL' incident was what got them signed. That's an assumption not a fact. The '4 REAL' incident happened a week before they signed and you can't make a deal like that in a week! An agreement has to go through many channels, including negotiations and legal, before the final contract is issued. That's just common sense!

Last edited by Bryter Layter; 21-03-2019 at 21:49.
Reply With Quote
  #740  
Old 22-03-2019, 00:17
raven's Avatar
raven raven is offline
Winterlover
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryter Layter View Post
Yeah, I don't know. All his friends and stuff seem to think it had something to do with him having acne for most of his teen years, but I'm sure there was a lot more to it than just skin issues. It usually is with these kinds of body issues and self hate. The Teddy Edwards thing is interesting though. I'm not British so I don't really know where the reference comes from, but maybe it did have an impact on him at a formative age.
Teddy's a nickname for Edward. And having a google there was a kids TV programme here through the 70s about a Teddy Edwards (before my time but I remember a drunk Nicky saying it was cos he looked liked a teddy bear. Cute and cuddly is I'm sure the reason why but you might read chubby in that....though it wasn't the intention or not in any negative sense anyway I'm sure. I'm not sure how old he was at the time but I know names even with the sweetest intentions can play on your mind but he really may have been too young at the time.
Acne would explain a lot I feel. The only reference he ever made was in Faster I think? But, well, it can be more than just a skin issue.....it gets shrugged off as a 'teenage thing' as if it's something everyone goes through but it's more than that, much more and can lead to some serious self hatred. It never gets talked about unlike anorexia say which felt like it was a fashion at one point with regards to the amount of press interest, there's something glamorous in the image of wasting away supermodel waiflike (I know that's far from the reality) but it's seen as more glam than it's twin bulimia and certainly more attractive than acne which isn't perceived as remotely attractive or tragic but it can destroy your self esteem and of course it's happening to you right through the time when everyone around you is becoming aware of appearance and you're starting to realise you're judged on how attractive you are compared to the next person. And kids don't hold back. It can do serious harm to your self image and it's hard to leave that behind even when it does.....which can be a few years.
It sounds silly but in a way you don't, or I should say I don't, see these things as affecting boys as much as they're not really held up and judged on their appearance in the way girls are. But maybe that's actually part of the problem.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryter Layter View Post
I'm sure he did know that young girls found him attractive and he played that up for his own gain. I'm not excusing that kind of behaviour, just noting that given his negative body image, he may have gotten a boost to his ego from seeing how much these people wanted to be with him. It's also probably a power thing too. I'm sure that plays into it as well because it usually does. Not surprisingly though, the book only mentions groupies a few times and both instances are extremely dismissive (tbh, I'm shocked they were mentioned at all! Lol!). There's also no mention of the young teenage fans he used although she does reference them as groupies (again vague and dismissive) before beginning another tiresome interpretation of one of the songs on THB, this time 'Yes". Speaking of his contact with teenagers, IMO, the most disturbing thing in the book isn't the subtle and sometimes blatant slagging off the band gets, its actually the attempt to normalize and romanticize a relationship between a man in his 20s and a teenage girl he met when she was 15/16. They even go so far as to say, he wanted a relationship so he "kept her on the periphery" when she was 17 (oh! How nice of him! Lol!). I just hope this woman didn't waste her teen years refusing to date other people and just sitting by the phone waiting for him to call or write her a letter. Basically just waiting for him to make up his mind about dating her meanwhile he's sleeping with other people. I mean, I get why they had to include his relationship with her and it's pretty clear that this may have been the only type of romantic relationship he was able to have (it reads like the most significant time they spent in each other's company was for 2 weeks in the fall of '94), but the way the author's have positioned it seems grossly out of touch with what's going on today given the contempt people have for men in positions of power that have and continue to take advantage of vulnerable teens. As a fan, this is the side of Richey I've always found very difficult to reconcile with.
Well, I know he did talk about groupies and could be dismissive, bordering on sexist may as well say and definitely sexist and wrong with regards to seeking out a prostitute like a Western arrogant tourist idiot in Thailand but that said as far as I'm aware there was never any suggestion that he was interested in young girls beyond some malicious shit stirring with absolute no foundation. I hear what you're saying about Jo. Even 19 is young to 27.....not wrong of course not but quite a gap at that age. That said it didn't seem unequal if that makes sense, he seems to have found someone he could talk to on an equal level, she didn't sound naive and I'm not entirely sure she was a big fan of the band? That was a rumour too though so could be rubbish but what I mean is she wasn't necessarily easily swayed by his status, wasn't a besotted fan (just swayed by his Bambi eyes?)
I'm not even sure the attention boosted his ego. I know I said he was vain but you can be obsessed with appearance whilst impervious to flattery. It can be hard though I understand to distinguish between vulnerabilty and attention seeking. Are they a user or being used. It's possibly not always black and white but he was vulnerable that seems self evident. I find it upsetting that he'd use the knives given to him by a fan to cut himself, that anyone would do that to him and that he'd use them, all self esteem long gone
__________________
"There is a pleasure in the pathless woods,
There is a rapture on the lonely shore
There is society, where none intrudes,
By the deep sea, and music in its roar:
I love not man the less, but Nature more," - Byron

'I must go down to the seas again, for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call that may not be denied;
And all I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume, and the sea-gulls crying.' (from Sea Fever - John Masefield)


"Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul
And sings the tune without the words
And never stops at all" - Emily Dickinson
Reply With Quote
  #741  
Old 22-03-2019, 11:34
handbag's Avatar
handbag handbag is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
I've finished reading the book (no, I didn't buy it). If anyone wants to read it, send me a PM and I'll gladly loan it out.
Reply With Quote
  #742  
Old 22-03-2019, 14:48
Glass Angel Glass Angel is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by handbag View Post
I've finished reading the book (no, I didn't buy it). If anyone wants to read it, send me a PM and I'll gladly loan it out.
Ditto (not read it yet, but happy to lend once I have!)
Reply With Quote
  #743  
Old 27-03-2019, 04:53
vaiden's Avatar
vaiden vaiden is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: there's a lot to be said for nowhere
Posts: 256
Hmmm. Just finished the book
Reply With Quote
  #744  
Old 27-03-2019, 11:09
handbag's Avatar
handbag handbag is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaiden View Post
Hmmm. Just finished the book

That's how I felt.
Reply With Quote
  #745  
Old 27-03-2019, 21:46
4our5ive6ix's Avatar
4our5ive6ix 4our5ive6ix is offline
Born to end
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC, originally Liverpool
Posts: 42
Even already knowing most of what the book is telling us about the end of 94' start of '95, it is still very difficult reading all of the details without getting emotional. Not really into the chapter on their interpretation of the lyrics, some of it definitely seems to be reaching. Plus they analyze, "So damn easy to cave in / Man kills everything"...wasn't that one of Nicky's contributions to the song? Lol
__________________
Unconditional love and hate
Reply With Quote
  #746  
Old 28-03-2019, 12:36
Son of Stopped's Avatar
Son of Stopped Son of Stopped is offline
Builder of routine
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Make a cup of tea
Age: 45
Posts: 15,248
Not read the book but there is a bit of sarcasm in my earlier posts.
Are their any winners in the book? Is it stuff nobody didn't need to know? A curate's egg or more harmful? Has it shattered any opinions of the band? I know, get it and read it for myself, but it just isn't that demanding of my interest. So there's my answer!
Reply With Quote
  #747  
Old 28-03-2019, 21:20
raven's Avatar
raven raven is offline
Winterlover
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,241
I have a copy. Found it when I wasn't looking so. I've reached Generation Terrorists.

It's not particularly well written. I'm getting a sense of his character but I'm not sure it's the one I feel I'm 'intended' to get and it's that authorial nudging throughout that's grating I did find the family history around WWI interesting and something else I found interesting was mention of his dad being in the Red Berets where part of the training involved just standing and taking punches without reacting for 60 seconds. They don't make the link but it brought to my mind Richey's almost obsession with being non-violent, or rather passive in the face of aggression
There's little about his relationship with his parents, his mum is barely mentioned which is unusual when a large part of the book is about him growing up and what formed the man I guess
So far the band as childhood friends are dismissed, there's a snideness in tone at their mention. Not at every mention once the band get together but the book does want to leave you with the impression that they were acquintances at best until he joined the band rather than the friends of mythology so to speak which seems childish,. In truth there are a few times I've felt I'm reading about school playground politics score settling (Richey was a shy kid but open to people and friendly they want you to know....Nicky and James why they were just aloof. Ha. You have to remind yourself you're not reading a 14 year old's fanzine)
__________________
"There is a pleasure in the pathless woods,
There is a rapture on the lonely shore
There is society, where none intrudes,
By the deep sea, and music in its roar:
I love not man the less, but Nature more," - Byron

'I must go down to the seas again, for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call that may not be denied;
And all I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume, and the sea-gulls crying.' (from Sea Fever - John Masefield)


"Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul
And sings the tune without the words
And never stops at all" - Emily Dickinson
Reply With Quote
  #748  
Old 29-03-2019, 01:42
handbag's Avatar
handbag handbag is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
Everything Raven wrote is spot on.

Richey's friendship with the band is massively played down. The whole book is heavily biased to put across the image that Richey was the desperately lonely genius poet 24/7.

It's obvious Rachel's problem with the band is that they took advantage of the loss of Richey by selling out and making lots of dollar. She doesn't think they did enough to find him (what could they do?).

Things get petty about the Bugs Bunny folder, and even Jo seems to have been having a poke at the band:

‘It was odd that the band never responded to a letter which Jo sent them about the poem she had written called “Edit the Sky”, which formed part of the song, “The Girl who Wanted to be God”.’

So there's a dig implying something or other. Did she want credits for the lines? It's so petty.

The book's a waste of space really. Very contrived. Very dull reading, too.

Sorry to say this but I bet all the 10s of British Pounds* in my bank that this book's not going to further any investigation even a millimeter. The "new clues" and theories are ridiculous. I understand Rachel's suffered/continues to suffer, but this book really wasn't a good idea.






*All eight of them.



I'm editing this over 12 hours later because I read it back and noticed I fucked up (that'll learn me to not post when overtired). This bit:
Quote me - "It's obvious Rachel's problem with the band is that they took advantage of the loss of Richey by selling out and making lots of dollar".
I meant to say that's SHR's problem. With Rachel I feel that she's mainly hurt that the rest of the band went on with their life and became successful when it was her brother's hard work that got the band noticed in the first place. I had issues with the band carrying on at the time and I've only ever seen them Richey-less once. No hard feelings against the band though, they'd just become less appealing musically and creatively to me. Becoming wealthy doesn't make them champagne socialists (although I had issues with the Castro thing). Anyway, rambling...just wanted to clear that up.

Armchair psychology - deep down Rachel thinks if Richey hadn't been in a band he'd still be here. Maybe she blames the band for what ultimately happened? Whether Richey's illness was reactive or clinical, it began before the band. It makes me wonder how Rachel would feel if she'd spent as much time with Richey as the band did. It was a bad situation for Richey and the band. How many days did she spend in his company? Even Jo struggled being with him for a weekend.

If SHR wants us to think James, Nick and Sean were somehow responsible for Richey's decline/disappearance, it didn't work. I also believe there was something special between the band members friendship wise and that's something not acknowledged in the book.

Sorry for the words...the book's left me frustrated/confused.

Last edited by handbag; 29-03-2019 at 19:49.
Reply With Quote
  #749  
Old 30-03-2019, 09:48
vaiden's Avatar
vaiden vaiden is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: there's a lot to be said for nowhere
Posts: 256
I agree with the above about the interpretation of the songs as well as the armchair psychoanalysis. He does not read autism spectrum to me at all. I thought they were really reaching! But everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't have his case notes from the Priory.

Richey is such a paradox or dichotomy to me. I'm never really sure When he is lying or exaggerating or not. This is why I don't take things like the prostitute in Thailand as Richey cannon. It could very well be true but it also fits so well with his agenda and the whole asexual thing.For example the girlfriend Claire he wrote to. This has never been mentioned. Instead he.says he has never had a relationship..But that does not fit in with the image he wanted to portray. Truth or not I suppose doesn't matter as this doesn't change his lyrics, articulation and intelligence. They brush over the groupies and the CoR which I find baffling but thankfully leave out the I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that Richey did this rumors. I have read a few things I was hoping would be addressed but were not so I was disappointed but these things could have been left out for legal reasons. Do we know why the book was delayed?
Reply With Quote
  #750  
Old 30-03-2019, 22:57
vaiden's Avatar
vaiden vaiden is offline
I am purity, they call me perverted
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: there's a lot to be said for nowhere
Posts: 256
Who threatened legal action that resulted in the delay of releasing the book or was it something else?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.