How important are the band's politics to you as a fan?

[Ermintrude the Cow]

Originally Posted by Takk

Well, that's your interpretation. My point was more that there is material in their songs that can be interpreted in different ways.

It's also what Nicky said the meaning was, and he kinda wrote it

Hmmm. I'd interpret Richey's politics as far more authoritarian than libertarian. Richey was an authoritarian Stalinist and the stuff on THB is consistent with that. Strength and control are running themes in Stalinist thought. Something like Archives isn't libertarian, as theres nothing truly libertarian about the death penalty.

[Takk]

Well, not everyone listening to it has nicky wire telling them in their ear what he meant. And I'm not even sure nicky knows what richey's lyrics are meant to mean.

Many ideologies get pretty close at times, though, especially when extreme.

[Bryter Layter]

Originally Posted by Ermintrude the Cow

They say "fuck the Brady Bill" because it caused black people to be priced out of the gun market and left unable to defend themselves against racist attack.

With all due respect, that's the most right-wing comment I've heard/read in a long time. It's borderline Tea Party-esque () although I'm quite sure you didn't mean it to come across as I've interpreted it.

I'm pretty sure, based on the things Nicky has said (and yes, a bit of personal interpretation too) that "fuck the Brady Bill" was a lyrical attack on what he, and presumably the rest of the band, thought was another law that favoured white America. Basically a lack of equality in a system that has conitnuously claimed to be the beacon of freedom and equality. I really don't think he was advocating for violence on either side. Besides, "black-on-black" gun fatalities in certain economically strained urban communities within the US was one of the objectives the Brady Bill was meant to try and curb. I don't think people strongly opposed this bill because it would leave the black community defensless against racial attacks. To me, that's the same kind of mentality as those who claim guns actually prevent crime. Personally, I salute Clinton for having the balls to try and bring some kind of gun control law into effect. I think the one thing we can all agree on is that the States has an appalling record when it comes to gun related violence and their laxed attitude towards guns in general.

Btw, I think it's important to note that we should be careful not to streotype all black Americans by placing them in the "gheto" - over 50% of African-Americans are comfortably middle-class and are generally far from being oppressed.

Originally Posted by Lone Architect

I sometimes wonder if maybe Richey wanted to be a libertarian, possibly even a Rand-ian one, but was too scared that the 'survival of the fittest' doctrine would actually mean he himself would not be strong enough to survive. Certainly there are strong themes of wanting to be powerful and in control running throughout THB.

That's a really good question. Personally, I think his perceptions of a lot of things at that time were the result of his mental health rapidly degenerating. I'd like to go more in-depth on this subject, but I'm at work and can't do so just now. It's a fascinating subject though.

Originally Posted by Ermintrude the Cow

It's also what Nicky said the meaning was, and he kinda wrote it

That's not strictly true. What Nicky viewed as the "marginalization of black people in America" is really only one aspect of a broader issue in that song. If there is any specific message it's corporate imperialism. As per Wire...

"Tt's not a completely anti-american song. It compares British imperialism to American consumerism. It's just trying to explain the confusion I think most people feel about how the most empty culture in the world can dominate in such a total sense. I've got an ambivalent attitude to America. I can't tell whether I should embrace it or just be confused by it. When we went to New York, I'd watched 'Cagney & Lacey' so much that I felt like I knew New York already when we got there.
The last lines (fuck the brady bill/if god made man they say/sam colt made him equal) are about the gun laws that clinton is trying to bring in. It would disenfranchise the black community, who generally don't have licences. The white rednecks in Middle America do have licences, but statistics show they cause as much crime."
(Nicky Wire; Melody Maker, 27 August 1994)

Again, I've never read any quotes where he or anyone in the band have made statements about black people needing guns to defend themselves against racist attacks (if you know of any, please post. I prefer to take the piss out of Nicky then defend him. Ha!). Of course, I suppose you can interpret his statements as suggesting this, but I'd like to think he wouldn't be so naive even if he is a white boy from Wales. Then again, he was in a different mindset back then so who knows really.

As for the OP's original question...I agree with Tim/Takk 100%.

[The Gutless Wonder]

Welcome back Shannon! Even if it's just a fleeting visit!

[raven]

When James Bradfield was asked if he would like to comment on IfWhiteAmerica and its controversies in an interview he said "We've never felt the need to explain any of our lyrics - that's enough of a political statement. You'll never get us to explain any of our lyrics any further. I'll be contentious and let you make up your own mind."
Ha.

Could mean he has no idea neither but ....

Richey wrote "America is still trying to convince itself it is positive, enlightened and absolute. Zapruder the first to saw doubts behind the reality/death of JFK. Bradey Bill typical - glorify gun culture until The Massacre gradually moves from the inner cities to the suburbs. The consequence arrives. Still believe Democrats are an alternative."

But I think Nicky wrote most of this song?

Originally Posted by Lone Architect

I sometimes wonder if maybe Richey wanted to be a libertarian, possibly even a Rand-ian one, but was too scared that the 'survival of the fittest' doctrine would actually mean he himself would not be strong enough to survive. Certainly there are strong themes of wanting to be powerful and in control running throughout THB.

So far left you go right. Though there is Buddhism in there too, self control, lack of selfish desire, whilst a desire to redress the balance, give the control back to the victim so maybe an unlikely Stalin

[Ermintrude the Cow]

Shannon, what you have just said is the point i was making. It was a law that favoured white people. Perhaps I explained it in a clumsy way.
I don't see how that is a rigjt-wing comment? It left black people disadvantaged against their white counterparts. I'm not arguing guns prevent crime, I'm arguing that letting one section of the community have guns while making it difficult for another section to have the same rights causes feelings of inequality. If I had my way; I'd destroy every gun on the planet, but while they are a basic right in America, to deny one section of the community that right is wrong.

And at the time of the BB, racist violence was a fact of life in the States. Still is. Always will be. People are unpalatable to me. They really are.

[The Gutless Wonder]

As Raven said, they have said in interviews before that regarding THB they don't really know what Richey was on about with alot of the lyrics!

[Ermintrude the Cow]

True. Nicky wrote ifwhiteamerica though!

Regarding the importance of their politics to me personally, obviously to ignore their politics is to ignore an important part of the band. They said in an interview a few years ago that they still run the band on socialist principles; and things like that initially appealed to me. Nowadays, I feel their politics are quite far removed from my own - Richey was a Stalinist, and although the others have mellowed in recent years, they still edge closer to the Communist end of socialism than I, as a democratic socialist, do.
That said, I appreciate the fact that they are on the left and they are open about that, although nowadays I'm more likely to use their lyrics as a point of reference to do my own research from, rather than having a blanket "I agree with everything Richey said" policy. They have definitely helped me shape my own socialist identity, but mainly by introducing me to concepts of leftist thought I don't agree with, but can, thanks to MSP, understand and debate. Which has, in turn, encouraged me to see the labour movement as a broad church, rather than dismissing anyone to the left of me as an extremist. Or worse, a Bennite

[Futurologist]

I don't know what any of you are going on about #thick

[raven]

Originally Posted by Ermintrude the Cow

Shannon, what you have just said is the point i was making. It was a law that favoured white people. Perhaps I explained it in a clumsy way.
I don't see how that is a rigjt-wing comment? It left black people disadvantaged against their white counterparts. I'm not arguing guns prevent crime, I'm arguing that letting one section of the community have guns while making it difficult for another section to have the same rights causes feelings of inequality. If I had my way; I'd destroy every gun on the planet, but while they are a basic right in America, to deny one section of the community that right is wrong.

And at the time of the BB, racist violence was a fact of life in the States. Still is. Always will be. People are unpalatable to me. They really are.

Whilst true that gun control has in the past been used to essentially uphold racism when blacks had very little defence against the state and generally no rights .... that was a long time past. Arguments of caution still come up whenever the words gun control are mentioned and the arguments stem from a different place than the NRA but the Brady Bill was about keeping guns out of the hands of criminals by bringing in a period of time for checks to be run. It wasn't about keeping them out of the hands of blacks and I can find no criticisms being raised of the bill or the act as it became on grounds of racism real or perceived

I always took the lines Fuck the Brady bill if God made man they say Sam Colt made him equal as tongue in cheek....America and God and Guns....Nicky's comments on racism are a little at odds with the Bill's intentions even if the argument could and has taken place in relation to America and it's gun laws and racism. But that Bill was quite an achievement. Didn't quite achieve as it had hoped but jst the passing of it...since then things seem to have gone backwards and even Columbine and Aurora aren't enough to get gun control a subject even for reasoned debate never mind legislation. But there's the nature of a broken and divided society where violence breeds fear breeds the desire to feel protected with a gun on and on round and round. Regardless of the history that lead up to the second amendment you'd think the US by now would be a country confident in itself enough to not to still cling on to big boys toys Reason why it would be wrong to arm the police and start the spiral here

Originally Posted by Ermintrude the Cow

True. Nicky wrote ifwhiteamerica though!

Regarding the importance of their politics to me personally, obviously to ignore their politics is to ignore an important part of the band. They said in an interview a few years ago that they still run the band on socialist principles; and things like that initially appealed to me. Nowadays, I feel their politics are quite far removed from my own - Richey was a Stalinist, and although the others have mellowed in recent years, they still edge closer to the Communist end of socialism than I, as a democratic socialist, do.
That said, I appreciate the fact that they are on the left and they are open about that, although nowadays I'm more likely to use their lyrics as a point of reference to do my own research from, rather than having a blanket "I agree with everything Richey said" policy. They have definitely helped me shape my own socialist identity, but mainly by introducing me to concepts of leftist thought I don't agree with, but can, thanks to MSP, understand and debate. Which has, in turn, encouraged me to see the labour movement as a broad church, rather than dismissing anyone to the left of me as an extremist. Or worse, a Bennite

I'm not sure Richey condoned mass murder by the state, facism or the cult of personalities....had a view in favour of the death penalty at least whilst he wrote one particular song in certain cases true....that doesn't a Stalinist make. A little romanticised view of communism, him and Nicky for sure(if they're unclear in their views who knows what James thinks, except usually something more sensible aye. And Sean probably knows the secret of the universe) but even so I can't see how a Stalinist could have written The Holy Bible

Originally Posted by shug

I don't know what any of you are going on about #thick

I've never let not knowing what I'm on about stop me going on and on.
And on.

[Takk]

^ Yeah, I don't really know where this Stalinist tag comes from. Never really saw them as communists, either.

[Dac X Lee]

Well, in Let Robeson Sing, they describe him as "pinky lefty revolutionary". Might not be a communist thing, but communists are known as "leftists" and the "pinky" would actually be the softened red colour.
And the whole song is about what a great man that Robeson was.

I think it is from detailes such as this that people get an idea they might be communists.

[UEF]

Originally Posted by Dac X Lee

Well, in Let Robeson Sing, they describe him as "pinky lefty revolutionary". Might not be a communist thing, but communists are known as "leftists" and the "pinky" would actually be the softened red colour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinko

[Noisy Cat]

Massively important. Politics is what made them my favourite band.

[Ermintrude the Cow]

Communists are only one branch of leftism.

The Stalinist tag, they're authoritarian left. Nicky has said before tax is preferable to charity as a way of helping people. They're massive statists, basically. They're further left than mainstream left, but they're not Trots.
As for thinking a Stalinist couldn't write THB: running themes of the weakness of humanity when alone, a desire for control, anti American and anti British sentiment and a call for the death penalty? Sounds textbook stalinism to me!

Obviously their politics are only one part of them and one pArt of their inspirAtion. Richey's introspection is obviously as big a lyrical drive as Anything else.