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  #31  
Old 31-08-2010, 15:05
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I'd say Im the romantic type... and you don't know how much I hate it.
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  #32  
Old 01-09-2010, 08:41
laramblas laramblas is offline
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Lyrically Richey - Politcally Nicky
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  #33  
Old 13-01-2011, 10:07
the_hound the_hound is offline
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Hi,

it was me that wrote this article. Several months ago now actually. Was interested to find this thread with lots of feedbackand thank you for that. Sorry I'm a bit late

I'm just gonna pick up on a few of the points that were made here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gladstone View Post
To be honest, I've never heard of anyone loving the Nicky stuff and hating the Richey stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Embla Claymore View Post
I don't know what this person is basing his/her argument on.
If it's his/her opinion, fair enough, but I don't think it involves all Manics fans.

Sorry Gladstone, but there are Manic fans who loved them back in the early 90s and have refused to listen to them since. I know many people who feel they simply haven't been anywhere near as good since Richey's disappearance. And I have met fans who got into the Manics off the back of their big singles in the mid 90s ' 'Tolerate' 'Design' etc, and when they tried exploring the first three albums, loathed them. And really didn't enjoy JFTPL either. The article was inspired by reading some comments on their facebook page when they announced PFAYM was coming out, and a number of people posted comments along the lines of 'God, I hope its better than JFTPL - sorry, but have no interest in the morbid lyrics of that Richey fella.'

But true Claymore - it doesn't involve all Manic fans. And I did over sell the point in the intro to make the article more eye catching, though if you read the conclusion I did make that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint View Post

Regarding the article itself, this paragraph hit me in the eye:

I'd say Nicky is at his very worst in 'angry' political anthems because in them he is actually preachy and unsubtle, unlike the likes of say Tolerate which while political never makes a big number of it and as a result works so much better. Generally he fares better when introspective and personal, rather than trying to give us a clunky politics lesson.
Flint - first like the whole fox thing you got going on. Second: fair enough point - we disagree a little bit, but that's the joys of music - if we all had the same opinions - god, the world would be dull!


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Originally Posted by starstruck View Post
Masses Against The Classes was radio friendly?

it's an interesting article, and i get the perspective it comes from. there were no doubt die hard fans who balked at what happened to the band after Richey went missing and an apparent "change of direction" came in. Bowie springs to mind - after the 70s triumphs and the devastating Cat People soundtrack, many Bowiephiles were horrified when he decided he wanted to be a really, really big pop star with Let's Dance. i would suggest, though, that this mysterious faction of hardcore Manics loyalists didn't balk at EMG; surely if they were that hardcore it would have been around GATS they bailed - wasn't the intention of the band to do one album and split?

qualified with "in my opinion", i think the continued success of the Manics has been the fact that they have been blessed with two amazing lyric writers. i wouldn't say one is better than the other, and i am sure all would agree both have written some terrible things. they have a different approach and yet not all that radically different a vision. Nicky could not write something like Faster just as Richey probably couldn't have delivered something like If You Tolerate This. it doesn't stop either being amongst the greatest songs of the band, and doesn't reflect badly on the other.

this could well turn out to be all academic. when the follow up to PFAYM comes out, featuring the credit "all lyrics by Sean Moore", fans will scratch their heads wondering why they ever bothered tolerating Richey or Nickys comparatively weaker lyrics in the first place.
I've only been here 3 days Starstruck, but I am already finding you really interesting. Totally agree that both Wire and Richey were both amazing lyricists - though personally prefer Richey, but can still respect Wire.

And 'Masses Against the Classes' - OK. maybe a little of an oversell on it being 'radio friendly' but certainly friendlier than some of the more bleaker punk style songs of their first three albums

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deets View Post
1. haha Masses radio friendly?
2. Nicky wrote whole Ifwhiteamerica? I have read that he brought the title, I mean put the words together but I've never heard it's his.
3. HE MADE A MISTAKE IN AUTUMNSONG LYRICS!!!!! 'the best times are yet to come'
4. From Despair To Where - he mistakenly writes James instead of Richey, which might suggest that James is JDB not RJE
5. Ford Mondeo is disguisting.
1. Refer back to previous point with Starstruck.
2. I always thought it was Wire. It 'feels' like Wire to me. A few other people made the same point, but it seems no one here is certain either. I think Wire def had a hand in it, perhaps it was co written?
3. Sorry. Typing error. I think I cut and paste from a lyrics website, and didn't do a proof read. I actually cringed when I first saw the article posted on the website, and realised the lyrics were wrong.
4. I deliberately wrote James, as I prefer to refer to him as Richey James rather than Richey Edwards. But in hindsight I can see the confusion.
5. Nothing against the Ford Mondeo as a car, but the drivers of said car do have very middle of the road music tastes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by proevpete View Post
Nicky Wire is not a socialist.
Sorry but yes he is. He writes songs like 'Design for Life' and 'Masses Against the Classes' (going for the two obvious ones here) about the lower classes being repressed by the upper classes and writes calls to arms for them to raise up against them. Only a socialist would write songs like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by allofwho View Post
They honest to god couldn’t see the point of last year’s posthumous tribute to Richey

Really? Does this kind of fan exist??

Also, this article is poorly written and riddled with semi-colons.
I have noticed that since helping with misformusic that often if people disagree with an article or review they say the article is poorly written because they think that sounds more intelligent than simply posting 'I disagree with this article'. It doesn't at all, its just lazy commenting. The article isn't poorly written and has many nice turns of expression (though it did need to be more carefully proof checked - see the misquoted lyric from Autumn Song). I am a decent writer, but agree that I do have a semi colon fixation.

And yes that type of fan does exist. See my earlier point about the facebook fan page comments.

Thanks for the feedback. I should have perhaps said there are three groups of Manic fans in the intro, but lets be honest, it wouldn't have been as interesting a read if I had done that!
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  #34  
Old 13-01-2011, 15:57
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I think attributing the change in direction and sound between THB/EMG solely to Nicky is just a little bit (read: MASSIVELY) simplistic. The band are on record as saying that they were never going to make another Holy Bible (EMG 10th anniversary DVD I think).
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  #35  
Old 13-01-2011, 16:38
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I'm sure in THB 10th anniversary edition documentary, Nicky says ifwhiteamerica was his
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  #36  
Old 13-01-2011, 16:46
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Quote:
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I'm sure in THB 10th anniversary edition documentary, Nicky says ifwhiteamerica was his
I was thinking that too.
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  #37  
Old 13-01-2011, 16:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_hound View Post


The article was inspired by reading some comments on their facebook page when they announced PFAYM was coming out, and a number of people posted comments along the lines of 'God, I hope its better than JFTPL - sorry, but have no interest in the morbid lyrics of that Richey fella.'
Has it ever occured that maybe those kind of comments are banter, from fans being sarcastic? Manicsfans in general are quite a cynical bunch (in many ways) and are also quite self-depricating. I don't think the casual "Mondeo-driving" fan who's only interest in the band is through TIMT and Lifeblood would care enough to post on the facebook group. Surely you have to really like a band to bother doing that?

There's a grouping of fans, mainly 'older' people (late 20's-30's) who make a point of "hating Richey", even though they don't actually hate him, they want to prove that they are no longer the die-hard wrist-cutting obsessives they were aged 13.

I could be wrong, but I think anyone who would post on the FB page or on here would know exactly who "that Richey fella" is and would understand how disrespectful a lot of others would find those comments, which leads me to think it's being done for effect...
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  #38  
Old 14-01-2011, 04:44
the_hound the_hound is offline
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^ I just heard and saw a number of comments both at the time of JFTPL and PFAYM, from fans who did not see the point of JFTL. They felt the Manics should leave the past behind, and simply didn't enjoy the Richey written songs. I think I also remember reading similar comments from a guy on an Oasis fans forum - though he did say he was quite pleasantly surprised when he actually listened to JFTPL.

Interesting thing about facebook groups, you do get a lot of casual fans on them. After all it only take a second to click like, not like having to fill in a form and wait 3 months to get your account activated for say a forum like 'Forever Delayed'

Last edited by the_hound; 14-01-2011 at 05:01.
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  #39  
Old 14-01-2011, 06:08
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  #40  
Old 14-01-2011, 06:28
the_hound the_hound is offline
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What would Sean Moore's classification be?
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  #41  
Old 14-01-2011, 06:30
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A Sean Moore cynicist?
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  #42  
Old 14-01-2011, 06:43
the_hound the_hound is offline
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A Sean Moore Pygmyist?
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  #43  
Old 14-01-2011, 11:44
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@Hound, do you not think both Richey and Nicky have aspects of romanticism and socialism in their lyrics? I'm not sure I'd subscribe to the view that Nicky is the "political one" and Richey is the "romantic one."
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  #44  
Old 15-01-2011, 01:31
the_hound the_hound is offline
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^ that's a valid point. Though Nickey does veer more towards politics and Richey to being a romantic.
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  #45  
Old 15-01-2011, 22:43
Phil C Phil C is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatPretender View Post
No it's not! Unless you're counting editing down Richey's lyrics (I'm sure James had a significant role in that as well), Wire's contribution to Faster consisted of providing the title. Faster is a 100% Richey lyric.
Well, no offence, but I think I'll believe Nicky Wire over you. And Nicky Wire said that he contributed to the second verse - from memory the quote was something like 'stuff about society getting faster' (don't have the quote to hand but I remember him saying something along those lines).

As for the article itself, it very much over-states the division between the Manics fan groups. I don't doubt there are some people only like Richey or Nicky (I remember an NME review of a 1996 gig where an old fan announced 'Every single new fan is a total wanker'), but even a quick look around the internet would have shown the writer that (s)he is massively wrong in saying this is the average state of affairs.

As for the main idea - I sort of agree. Nick's lyrics are certainly more down-to-Earth than Richey's tended to be, and more likely to be about a single issue, whereas Richey tended (especially on 'THB') to deal in more general themes, either by creating a narrator to inhabit ('Yes', 'Small Black Flowers', '4st 7lb') or by pulling in references from all over the place ('Revol', 'Of Walking Abortion').

For me, 'The Holy Bible' remains their masterpiece, musically and lyrically. The scope of the words, in terms of themes and the language in which they are explored has no equal in rock music. But my next favourite album, lyrically, isn't 'Journal' (which I do love) but 'Know Your Enemy' and generally I find myself drawn to Nick's lyrics perhaps more than Richey's, perhaps because I'm more into politics than pain. In fact, I've always seen 'KYE' as Nick's version of 'THB' - it's an angry record, covering global political themes (remember that 'THB' isn't just about Richey - it's a very political album). Tracks like 'His Last Painting' are actually quite Richey-esque in some ways; it's not just about Nick feeling down, it's about the way people are happy to be slaves rather than have choice - rather like 'All Is Vanity' in fact.

Another poster in this thread made the excellent point that we only have a few year's worth of Richey's work compared to 15 of Nick writing alone. One of the most interesting aspects of 'Journal' was seeing how Richey and Nick were actually heading down similar paths - 'She Bathed Herself In A Bath Of Bleech' is not, for example, a million miles from 'You're Tender And You're Tired' and i've already compared 'All Is Vanity' with 'His Last Painting'. Richey was increasingly surreal in his lyrics on that album, which Nick seldom is, but thematically they perhaps would not have been as far apart as some would suggest.

Oh, and the argument in the article about 'Masses Against The Classes' was rather odd. Apparently it doesn't work because it was written by a band playing in stadiums, but 'Imperial Bodybags' is more genuine. But the Manics were still millionaires when they wrote 'Bodybags', still pampered middle-aged men so the argument really doesn't work. When they played 'Masses' in Manchester on the PFAYM tour, Nick introduced it by saying how fitting it was to play it at the birthplace of the Trade Union congress. That has nothing to do with the size of venue the band play, it's to do with their convictions and I've always thought it a lazy assumption that because someone becomes successful that their principles suddenly go out the window - Tony Benn never starved but few would doubt his principles. I don't mind the writer disliking 'Masses' but the reason (s)he's given is a bit silly.

Oh, and hello to the writer - must be an interesting introduction to the forum!

Last edited by Phil C; 15-01-2011 at 23:09.
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