How important are the band's politics to you as a fan?

[Littlesue]

What I meant was a lot of people think that if you are poor you can't attend Uni as you have'nt got the funds to do it. My son will only have the same loans as better off people

[The Gutless Wonder]

They're political thoughts have never been overly important to me as a fan, I know for some fans it has been very important to them. I do feel they've always put their thoughts across well in their songs.

[Takk]

Originally Posted by Littlesue

What I meant was a lot of people think that if you are poor you can't attend Uni as you have'nt got the funds to do it. My son will only have the same loans as better off people

Sure, but how's that better than him being able to get a grant and go free and not have to pay a huge amount back?

[Littlesue]

Its not better but it just annoys me when people say poor folk can't go to Uni, he gets around £5,000 a year free to live on what his rich friends don't. He will have to pay back the same course fee's as his rich friends but it don't affect his poor Mother or his friends rich Father, I'm not very good at explaining what I mean am I. I need you to say it and me to agree with it!

[Takk]

Well I think the whole means testing thing is pretty flawed anyway, but I know what you mean. But he's still going to have a huge debt to pay back that he wouldn't have had 15 years ago.

[Nature's Discontent]

Originally Posted by raven

The Manics are not snobbish. The Holy Bible may not have been instantly accessible if American politics and the holocaust were unfamiliar to you but the lyrics or the band have never felt exclusive or clever....if anything they were anti the presumed snobbery around wanting to get an education, wanting to read, to learn, to be curious....they are all from regular working class backgrounds and made it feel like it was OK to want to learn and in the beginning mixed it all up with the glam ... which attracted many and Richey's self harming, anorexia....attracted more....in later years just the music has brought in many....I've known fans with political views at polar opposites to the Manics generally left leaning ones .... many people just don't pay much attention to the words. Which has always frustrated me but if they've not latched people on to them they've not alienated them neither. Maybe that's partly cos as people have said for all their politics they're not Bragg or Bono and join few charities and causes publicly and are a little reserved in interviews (bar the odd line from Nicky).
It's mattered to me cos it gave me the bit of confidence I needed to go ahead and apply for university after The Holy Bible came out. It's true that studying international relations, politics....did help to well not to decipher Richey's lyrics but to get some of the references and recognise some of the ideas he was drawing from. The band have also drawn from recent news events too and/or used them as influences so maybe that helped recognising some of the context. It helped but you don't need a degree in politics to understand.
Richey's lyrics often seemed overladen with ideas like essays where you want to make all your points but you're struggling to shape them into the structure of an essay or in his case a song. Nicky pares his ideas down ... so much so that usually it's his lyrics that I don't always understand or get the allusion

To me they've always been an intelligent band, a refreshing band, but the politics and the references have been there for you to take or leave and like others I couldn't really say what their individual politics are for sure in terms of say voting .... and that's how it should be....being encouraged to think is good but not being told what to think


And Nicky, well I used to read every interview but in recent years not so much just the odd one around an album release but can't say I've heard him banging on about his politics degree. He's mentioned it and that Richey got one too but today it seems to be something you're supposed to feel ashamed of and keep to yourself or y'bring out everyone else's paranoia's and fears. Not sure if it's something peculiar to Britain.

Aye, well said. I pretty much agree with all of this.

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by fromdespairtowhere

I've missed this place, and you bloke, and I don't even know your name! Must maintain my allegiance but have been working hard and building a new kitchen(!)

I've been, I don't know if fortunate is the word, but politics have always played a pretty big part in my upbringing and life. Dad taught me the art of sticking up for causes and shouting at the television (not to mention hating nationalism, the Tories, the royals, etc). When my sister went to college and had dinner round her friend's parents she was struck to learn "other families" don't debate, discuss and theorise with each other.

Manics have reaffirmed my love of politics, Divine Comedy taught me what sort of books/art I'd like and Small Faces/the Goon Show have given me a sense of humour, a love of Edwardiana and taught me life is just a bowl of all bran. You wake up in the morning and it's there. Not to mention happydaystoytoylytownnewspaperandchucklysmileload.

Aw bless ya, welcome again.

Personally, I haven't come from a remotely politically minded or academic background. Politicians were just wankers and education was a waste of time, gotta get a trade son. It's weird with Manics cos you've got James who by his own admission never took school seriously so I wonder if he was hearing the same stuff I was when I was growing up. Then there's Nicky who takes great pride in his education. Still, Manics made me curious about politics but politics made me pissed off and bored with politics.

Happy Days Toy Town is fucking brilliant though.

Originally Posted by Dancing Kirby

Nicky hates everyone too much to ever be any good as a politician.

Some would argue that's an advantage...

Originally Posted by raven

The Manics are not snobbish. The Holy Bible may not have been instantly accessible if American politics and the holocaust were unfamiliar to you but the lyrics or the band have never felt exclusive or clever....if anything they were anti the presumed snobbery around wanting to get an education, wanting to read, to learn, to be curious....they are all from regular working class backgrounds and made it feel like it was OK to want to learn and in the beginning mixed it all up with the glam ... which attracted many and Richey's self harming, anorexia....attracted more....in later years just the music has brought in many....I've known fans with political views at polar opposites to the Manics generally left leaning ones .... many people just don't pay much attention to the words. Which has always frustrated me but if they've not latched people on to them they've not alienated them neither. Maybe that's partly cos as people have said for all their politics they're not Bragg or Bono and join few charities and causes publicly and are a little reserved in interviews (bar the odd line from Nicky).
It's mattered to me cos it gave me the bit of confidence I needed to go ahead and apply for university after The Holy Bible came out. It's true that studying international relations, politics....did help to well not to decipher Richey's lyrics but to get some of the references and recognise some of the ideas he was drawing from. The band have also drawn from recent news events too and/or used them as influences so maybe that helped recognising some of the context. It helped but you don't need a degree in politics to understand.
Richey's lyrics often seemed overladen with ideas like essays where you want to make all your points but you're struggling to shape them into the structure of an essay or in his case a song. Nicky pares his ideas down ... so much so that usually it's his lyrics that I don't always understand or get the allusion

To me they've always been an intelligent band, a refreshing band, but the politics and the references have been there for you to take or leave and like others I couldn't really say what their individual politics are for sure in terms of say voting .... and that's how it should be....being encouraged to think is good but not being told what to think


And Nicky, well I used to read every interview but in recent years not so much just the odd one around an album release but can't say I've heard him banging on about his politics degree. He's mentioned it and that Richey got one too but today it seems to be something you're supposed to feel ashamed of and keep to yourself or y'bring out everyone else's paranoia's and fears. Not sure if it's something peculiar to Britain.

Fuck Nicky, they need you doing their soundbites

I think you might have a point about the shame being peculiar to Britain. "Success is an ugly word, especially in your tiny world" or summat.

Originally Posted by counterlanguage

It's the whole 'last great political band' statement which bugs me, even if it is just one of Nicky's bullshit PR statements. As if his political knowledge / opinion equates with them being a band who are some kind of political voice / force in the music scene.

By comparison to most guitar bands yes, they're more politically inclined, but when he talks about politics, and makes statements like that, Wire just sounds like he's in love with the idea of still being a rebel despite his age.

In reality they continue, as always, to distance themselves from overt political statements - e.g. turning down the Olympics was just a self-defeating middle-aged punk sulk. Playing that in front of the Queen would have been more of a political statement than they've made in years.

Instead, they continue to meander along, thinking that INWJTEOL was a breath of fresh air that proves they're still valid, and that doing Strictly was somehow a revolutionary act. Wire's level of self-delusion is amazing at times.

Actually, make that most of the time.

Haha that's a bit harsh! I can understand why they wouldn't want to do the Olympics but I don't know if they'd booked the Asian leg of the tour before they'd been invited?

Well, everyone knows that the next album will be nothing like PFAYM anyway.

Originally Posted by The Gutless Wonder

They're political thoughts have never been overly important to me as a fan, I know for some fans it has been very important to them. I do feel they've always put their thoughts across well in their songs.

Hmm, well like Takk says about em being a bit opaque or ambiguous sometimes... I dunno.. I've always thought it's a bit of a case of they make the references, highly educated types say oh ok, the rest of us say what the fuck are you talking about and go off and find out. Sometimes I think they tend to focus on events rather than offer any specific opinion on them. God I'm rambling now. I think they stand out in that respect... I mean... I dunno, Rage Against The Machine are quite militant. Complete guess but I can't imagine there being any RATM fans who oppose their views? I've never met a RATM fan who didn't own a Che Guevara t-shirt anyway.

[Takk]

^ I guess that's sorta what I mean by snobbish - they make vague unclear references to events, which the average person doesn't know about...even if you go and read about them, it doesn't really make the song meanings clear or really put across a political point. You could definitely argue they turn people onto reading about ideas and history and maybe politics, but I'm not sure that makes them a political band really, in terms of their messages.

[The Gutless Wonder]

Yeah, I suppose with alot of the songs you have to dig a bit to learn what the meaning is. I'd forgotten how it took me a while to learn what Ready For Drowning was all about (for example!).

[Takk]

SYMM probably sums up the whole thing, lol.

If they are the only thing left to believe in, it sorta begs the question....in what are we supposed to believe?

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by Takk

^ I guess that's sorta what I mean by snobbish - they make vague unclear references to events, which the average person doesn't know about...even if you go and read about them, it doesn't really make the song meanings clear or really put across a political point. You could definitely argue they turn people onto reading about ideas and history and maybe politics, but I'm not sure that makes them a political band really, in terms of their messages.

I dunno, I think snobbish would be referencing A, B and C and saying you're an idiot if you don't know about em and they don't do that. Individuals can be snobbish like they want their favourite bands to be their best kept secrets and stay obscure as if their appeal is diluted by the masses. I'm sure Nicky loves knowing that their lyrics make people go off and read, like a couple of other people have mentioned in this thread it's more about getting people to think for themselves than telling people how to think. I don't consider them snobbish at all.

Fair enough, but they're a hell of a lot closer to being a political band than just about everyone else in the mainstream.

[The Gutless Wonder]

Originally Posted by Takk

SYMM probably sums up the whole thing, lol.

If they are the only thing left to believe in, it sorta begs the question....in what are we supposed to believe?

I defend SYMM TO THE END!!!

[Takk]

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

I dunno, I think snobbish would be referencing A, B and C and saying you're an idiot if you don't know about em and they don't do that. Individuals can be snobbish like they want their favourite bands to be their best kept secrets and stay obscure as if their appeal is diluted by the masses. I'm sure Nicky loves knowing that their lyrics make people go off and read, like a couple of other people have mentioned in this thread it's more about getting people to think for themselves than telling people how to think. I don't consider them snobbish at all.

Fair enough, but they're a hell of a lot closer to being a political band than just about everyone else in the mainstream.

Perhaps it's the result I see as snobbish, rather than the intention...which perhaps means snobbish is the wrong word.

[sculptureofabloke]

Originally Posted by Takk

Perhaps it's the result I see as snobbish, rather than the intention...which perhaps means snobbish is the wrong word.

How do you mean?

[raven]

Originally Posted by Takk

^ I guess that's sorta what I mean by snobbish - they make vague unclear references to events, which the average person doesn't know about...even if you go and read about them, it doesn't really make the song meanings clear or really put across a political point. You could definitely argue they turn people onto reading about ideas and history and maybe politics, but I'm not sure that makes them a political band really, in terms of their messages.

Originally Posted by The Gutless Wonder

Yeah, I suppose with alot of the songs you have to dig a bit to learn what the meaning is. I'd forgotten how it took me a while to learn what Ready For Drowning was all about (for example!).

Originally Posted by sculptureofabloke

I dunno, I think snobbish would be referencing A, B and C and saying you're an idiot if you don't know about em and they don't do that. Individuals can be snobbish like they want their favourite bands to be their best kept secrets and stay obscure as if their appeal is diluted by the masses. I'm sure Nicky loves knowing that their lyrics make people go off and read, like a couple of other people have mentioned in this thread it's more about getting people to think for themselves than telling people how to think. I don't consider them snobbish at all.

As Sculpture said. If they've stood for anything it's for education, for picking up a book, for thinking....they're remarkably un-preacheresque

Originally Posted by Takk

SYMM probably sums up the whole thing, lol.

If they are the only thing left to believe in, it sorta begs the question....in what are we supposed to believe?

I'm tired of giving a reason
I think SYMM probably does sum up a lot about them - or a lot about Nicky. The Hillsborough Justice Campaign being one of the very few campaigns they've linked themselves to....and Nicky goes no holds barred in the title as it is sung but then uses the acronym for the title - and yet for all that South Yorkshire mass murderer is a statement daring to be challenged the lyrics all around give no clue he's talking about Hillsborough bar the Jimmy McGovern line which you'd have to know references the drama (more than one review thought it was about the Yorkshire Ripper, not that he was south more west but)....the subject of this song well maybe it's a pointless one?? One minute accusatory the next backing right down.
It is a difficult subject and it is as though they want and need to take a stand and yet back down even here from being polemic. Emotionally I think it does impact but lyrically it can jar a little cos it's all fire one minute and completely uncertain the next - which in some ways captures the band's response ill at ease with taking up the role of becoming a kind of figurehead for any campaign
Maybe in the end that's exactly right and appropriate but it is a song of -'I want to say something but I'm not sure what'....although that is how Hillsborough makes you feel

Still for all that it was never going to be a song with any agenda anyway just a simple backing of a plea for justice.

Sometimes I think Nicky lacks confidence in his lyrics which is maybe at odds with how many seem to portray him on here and for me Postcards .... all came together and he seems to have found his voice consistently (though many don't seem to like the album) but I don't know he seemed to often talk of his lyrics as if comparing them with Richey's so often and it took till Postcards for him to write an album which feels like he's found his own voice

Originally Posted by Takk

Perhaps it's the result I see as snobbish, rather than the intention...which perhaps means snobbish is the wrong word.

Inaccessible? You have to do some work but they're never being clever just for the sake of being clever - which would be snobbish
And they've never been precious. They've always wanted the number one hit so if the lyrics can sometimes need a trip down the library the music is far from an acquired taste