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  #991  
Old 27-04-2018, 06:06
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Regardless of whether or not this is a good or poor LP this Arena tour was an abysmal choice, from what I'm reading sounds like how it was on Lifeblood, terrible crowd, songs didn't work well Live etc

Only difference between now and then is that the Arena's were more full then in December 2004.

I didn't enjoy the NT night that much because it was the O2 and it's q dump but obviously that was Sold Out.

What's interesting from looking at the gigs, in the last say 12 yrs or more they are not bringing in new fans, it's like the same old age range.

Futurology was an excellent LP to me but it was never toured properly, they should have not done 2 LPs within 7 months and kept the THB separate.
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  #992  
Old 27-04-2018, 07:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marat Sar View Post
After two weeks I can say this is a SATT / PFAYM I can listen to.
Same. It's the best one of the SATT Trilogy and I like it more and more with each listen. I love that each song is 'a single' in feel, can't wait to hear them live.
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  #993  
Old 27-04-2018, 08:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crow View Post
Regardless of whether or not this is a good or poor LP this Arena tour was an abysmal choice, from what I'm reading sounds like how it was on Lifeblood, terrible crowd, songs didn't work well Live etc

Only difference between now and then is that the Arena's were more full then in December 2004.

I didn't enjoy the NT night that much because it was the O2 and it's q dump but obviously that was Sold Out.

What's interesting from looking at the gigs, in the last say 12 yrs or more they are not bringing in new fans, it's like the same old age range.

Futurology was an excellent LP to me but it was never toured properly, they should have not done 2 LPs within 7 months and kept the THB separate.
Yep, agree with all this. An arena tour isn't good and can't be justified by bums on seats at this stage of their career.

Futurology didn't get the tour it deserved owing to the THB overlap. Now we just get the first single off it!
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  #994  
Old 27-04-2018, 08:49
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It did seem like they were keen to love on to the THB stuff v quickly after Futurology. A lot of us thought it was a curious decision to go into arenas for this tour when it was announced and the two gigs so far might seem to bear that out. I’m really looking forward to tonight though, I’m glad they’ve been playing a decent chunk off the new album and if they do stick with horses and 4 ever delayed I’ll be delighted. I didn’t get a song for departure on the LB tour either so that would be grand too.

There’s a lot to like on RIF - I just hope that they enjoy playing a bit more than they seem to have done so far. The worst I saw them was in 2010 when they just didn’t seem interested, and the best was a year later when they were much more into it. The only difference between those two gigs really was their energy level.

Whatever happens, I’m just glad they’re still making records.
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  #995  
Old 27-04-2018, 09:52
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Originally Posted by Suicide Aldi View Post
Yeah, so much craft behind
"Oh Vivian!
Oh Vivian!
Oh Vivian!
Oh Vivian!
Oh Vivian!
Oh Vivian!"
Real craft right there!

.
The tonal shift between the chords in the bridge and the opening chord of the chorus is very natural, especially for how sudden it is. Clicks into place, propelled by the bouncy rhythmic bass note joining. In accordance, the percussion shifts to double time compared to the bridge -- notice that the drums had already gotten busier in the bridge to set this transition up. To me the transition gives off the effect of an 80s TV style montage of someone taking photos, then the photos splashing on the screen. Joyous and cheesy, enforcing the theme of heavy ideas / melodic playfulness the album represents.

The "Vivian!" utterance is followed by a guitar melody that completes the melodic gesture of the chorus. People saying the chorus is repetative -- only one word! -- fail to make that connection. That it's a full melody started by vocals and then completed by the guitar line. (I can't understand how. Must be the same crowd who don't like Kevin Carter.)

There are no such incomplete choruses on the album, it's there to give respite from the otherwise stocked-full-of-words refrains.

There is, in fact, a full chorus in the song too, only it's saved for the end. Later, when backing vocals are laid atop the guitar line (in the penultimate chorus), it becomes clear that the full chorus was: "Oh Vivian, did you ever realize / Oh Vivian, the history you left behind" and so on. Only it was revealed in bits, as the whole song is: one fitting piece after the other, interlocking into place: the double time chorus into the sparser verse via the bridge, lyrics from the bridge onto the chorus later on. And finally, in the "solo" part an ascending little guitar line fills in the chorus completely, and remains there until the end of the song (every second chord change).

I can recite all this from memory, without even listening to the song -- that's how structurally solid and memorable it is.

Oh, and even the people who don't understand the craft it takes to move from complex + fragile to repetative + dynamic, like this song does, seem to understand the ascending / descending loungy melody in the verses. It's not exactly the first melody you come up with when you pick up a guitar at 16.

This album is all about craft. Seasoned technical constructions, both melodic and production-related (soundscapes), need to step up because JDB-s vocals alone don't carry like they did in the nineties. A lot of bands aren't able to do that -- compensate for the loss of physical youth in their singer's vocal chords (this is usually what the fans mean by: the magic isn't there), and disband. They're not doing that.

Tl;dr -- just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't technically accomplished songwriting.

Last edited by Marat Sar; 27-04-2018 at 09:58.
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  #996  
Old 27-04-2018, 10:25
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That was the most condescending thing I've ever read. 'Just because you don't understand' - get over yourself. Nobody cares whether it's a 'technically accomplished' song or not, they care about whether it's good to listen to and engaging on a personal level. I could write a 'technically accomplished' book and it could still be shit.

Also, 'stocked-full-of-words refrains'? Where? It's not like People Give In or HMLAH are falling over themselves lyrically in the vein of anything off JFPL.
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  #997  
Old 27-04-2018, 10:31
roi roi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marat Sar View Post

There is, in fact, a full chorus in the song too, only it's saved for the end. Later, when backing vocals are laid atop the guitar line (in the penultimate chorus), it becomes clear that the full chorus was: "Oh Vivian, did you ever realize / Oh Vivian, the history you left behind" and so on. Only it was revealed in bits, as the whole song is: one fitting piece after the other, interlocking into place: the double time chorus into the sparser verse via the bridge, lyrics from the bridge onto the chorus later on. And finally, in the "solo" part an ascending little guitar line fills in the chorus completely, and remains there until the end of the song (every second chord change).
That’s interesting. See also To Repel Ghosts from Lifeblood, for one other example.

Last edited by roi; 27-04-2018 at 10:36.
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  #998  
Old 27-04-2018, 11:45
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Marat Sar absolutely destroyed Suicide Aldi right there. Jesus that was brutal.
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  #999  
Old 27-04-2018, 12:14
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He didn't, there's room for two different opinions....
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  #1000  
Old 27-04-2018, 12:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marat Sar View Post
[....]

Tl;dr -- just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't technically accomplished songwriting.
(Did read; didn’t quote)

Great formal analysis of the song IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Finch View Post
That was the most condescending thing I've ever read. 'Just because you don't understand' - get over yourself. Nobody cares whether it's a 'technically accomplished' song or not, they care about whether it's good to listen to and engaging on a personal level. I could write a 'technically accomplished' book and it could still be shit.
But Marat Sar was responding to a specific (albeit somewhat tongue-in-cheek I think) point concerning “craft” rather than whether it is ‘good to listen to or engaging on a personal level’.

The tl;dr sums up the difference, which is really just pointing out that a formal analysis of the song writing is perhaps different to a personal opinion of whether it is good to listen to or engaging on a personal level more generally. If you didn’t ... ok? Some of us did... is that not ok too?

What makes a song ‘well crafted’ is still open to subjective interpretation based on what one considers to be good crafting I suppose. But it’s a specific way of looking at the song and analysing it. It’s perfectly possible to think a song is well-crafted but, as you say, not think it’s any good to listen to or that it fails to engage with you on a personal level.

Vivian isn‘t my favourite song on the album but I still like it a lot and I found Marat Sar’s post interesting, as apparently others did too. So it seems others do in fact care about the technical craft of the song to some degree. If you don’t then that’s fine, of course.
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Last edited by Porco; 27-04-2018 at 12:29.
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  #1001  
Old 27-04-2018, 12:45
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Suicide Aldi Suicide Aldi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Quatercircle View Post
Marat Sar absolutely destroyed Suicide Aldi right there. Jesus that was brutal.
Im so devestated by the music lesson that I just recieved, I think I might take those pointers on board and write a technically brilliant song about it!

Here goes... I call it, Marat Sar

You stalk the web with a new song in your head
Some music theory is your only defence
Iv heard this song but it dosnt make me smile
Such a terrible shame
That you live in such denial

Marat Sar did you ever realise,
The reason Vivian is so maligned?

Oh Marat Sar
Oh Marat Sar
Oh Marat Sar
Oh Marat Sar

If you like this song then I guess that is your choice
But I didnt like, the things your post implies
Im not so stupid that I fail to understand
That the theory is good
But the execution dire

Marat Sar will you ever recognise,
The tonal shift in the chorus dosnt sound right?

Oh Marat Sar
Oh Marat Sar
Oh Marat Sar
( On paper this song is ok )
Oh Marat Sar
( but not in practise yes oh yay )

Marat Sar, the defender of crap songs
Tragically points out how I am wrong

Oh Marat Sar
Oh Marat Sar
Oh Marat Sar
Oh Marat Sar

Oh Mrart Sar
( will you ever realise? )
Oh Marat Sar
( will you come to recognise )
Oh Marat Sar
( That JDB could not be arsed )
Oh Marat Sar
( To write a better guitar part?)
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  #1002  
Old 27-04-2018, 12:51
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  #1003  
Old 27-04-2018, 12:53
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Lol, touchθ Suicide Aldi.

I love Manics fans.
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  #1004  
Old 27-04-2018, 12:54
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Vivian is a weird one for me. Bottom of the list when I heard it the first time, and then shot up to the top of list when Ilistening to album again two weeks later. It's beginning to drop down a couple of places.

I think the music crafting here is fine. There are far worse offenders on RiF (I'm looking at you Distant Colours). My issue with Vivian and with RiF in general is that there are no layers to peel off. To this day, new nuances of EMG, TIMT and Lifeblood songs make their presence known to me. RiF is very immediate. I feel in the two weeks since its release, I've heard all RiF has to offer. The songs might be well crafted and structured but they're also hollow on the inside. There's very little depth. Judging by the interviews, RiF is an album that was made to tide the band over until they found their next source of inspiration. Hold me like a heaven wasn't even written when the band announced the album which for me is revealing. It's not their worst album but neither were they swinging for the fences. All this is said recognising that members of the band are adults with responsibilities which means they can't always commit fully to their creative passions.
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Last edited by Routine Builder; 27-04-2018 at 13:03.
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  #1005  
Old 27-04-2018, 12:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porco View Post
(Did read; didn’t quote)

Great formal analysis of the song IMHO.



But Marat Sar was responding to a specific (albeit somewhat tongue-in-cheek I think) point concerning “craft” rather than whether it is ‘good to listen to or engaging on a personal level’.

The tl;dr sums up the difference, which is really just pointing out that a formal analysis of the song writing is perhaps different to a personal opinion of whether it is good to listen to or engaging on a personal level more generally. If you didn’t ... ok? Some of us did... is that not ok too?

What makes a song ‘well crafted’ is still open to subjective interpretation based on what one considers to be good crafting I suppose. But it’s a specific way of looking at the song and analysing it. It’s perfectly possible to think a song is well-crafted but, as you say, not think it’s any good to listen to or that it fails to engage with you on a personal level.

Vivian isn‘t my favourite song on the album but I still like it a lot and I found Marat Sar’s post interesting, as apparently others did too. So it seems others do in fact care about the technical craft of the song to some degree. If you don’t then that’s fine, of course.
It's not the technical analysis of the song I particularly mind to be honest, it's the whole tone of the post being so up their own arse, condescending, and judgemental. Yes ok my 'nobody cares' was a generalisation and a heated response to the tone and I can admit that. You can discuss a song technically without sounding like you think yourself superior to others reading it. It was very 'you little people just don't get it but I do and therefore you're wrong'.
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