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  #571  
Old 27-02-2019, 12:42
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I mentioned the WLW thing from the book as Rachel highlights it as a particular bone of contention while also making it clear the band can’t win whatever they do or don’t do with Richey’s lyrics. Certainly wasn’t trying to insist my feelings about it are ‘correct’, very much mentioned them as a by-the-by. Of course understand response/differing views, but really not the point at hand, as I think beautifuldistortion is trying to say.
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  #572  
Old 27-02-2019, 12:44
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Thanks that last bit is from the press release and it seems to be completely illogical that people would have different interpretations based on that description.
I don't see how Richey's words there, or Nicky's recollections, disprove beautiful distortion's interpretation of the butcher/architect line. Quite the opposite. But the song is about 'a lot of stuff' as your man Homer might say.

I also think I've derailed this thread enough. Back to the book, which I don't have and am interested in hearing more about…
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  #573  
Old 27-02-2019, 15:25
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"I didn't feel any sense of other relief cos I knew all this was yet to come, I mean this is the difficult stuff. Choosing your words Ė you're like a politician, it's the closest because you're interpreting someone else's words, so many people to think about, it's a hard story for a lot of people. In some ways the band has had it easier, it's a lot harder for his family, for his mam and dad, for his sister Ė all the pain and trauma they've had to go through. So for me, there is an element when... once the... When you see like a promotion schedule for something that 50 % of, i.e. all the lyrics are written by someone else and it's quite daunting."

That was Nicky in 2009, talking of doing promo for JFPL in the Shadows & Words documentary. So very disrespectful, clearly claiming ownership and generally just being an asshole about Richey and his family. Indeed.

Just needed to share this.
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  #574  
Old 27-02-2019, 15:43
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  #575  
Old 27-02-2019, 21:37
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I think so far our best guess has been that Leon Noakes is a ghost/assistant writer? As such is it not curious he has no other writing credits on Amazon or Goodreads? I mean, a ghost writer wouldnít have to have I guess, but then that would make it odd heís credited for this project but not others.

Iím still trying to make sense of how poorly written/lacking in editing and fact-checking this thing is, especially with so many people involved, as well as, you know, the whole thing itself...
I initially assumed he was a ghost writer, but I'm starting to think he may just be someone SHR knew who helped with the research and perhaps the layout of the book.

Interesting that people who are either casual fans or lapsed fans seem to find this book quite good, but from what very little I've read so far, the writing doesn't seem particularly good. I can only assume it's the subject matter that the reviewers are responding to.

For what it's worth, I always thought Faster, for the most part, was him writing about himself. Same with Yes. I also don't understand the criticism of Nicky's WLW edit. That piece of writing is a massive ramble and I'd like to see those giving him shit for it, do a better job! I think if there's any legit criticism to be had it's that perhaps they shouldn't have made it into a song if it was unclear what Richey's intentions were for it. It obviously doesn't read like a song lyric, but then again, he's quoted as saying that he and Nicky would give James two or three pieces of paper and then James would try and make a lyric from it so maybe they assumed the same of WLW. Nevertheless, If Rachel believed the piece to be something more meaningful in it's original form, then the band should have respected that and left it alone.
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  #576  
Old 27-02-2019, 21:54
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SHR has wrote a few plays with Leon -

http://www.welshfargostagecompany.com/tag/sara-hawys/ (although it says Leon Russell, Russell is his middle name)
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-...-night-6996575

I knew SHR from my uni days and she had a male friend which sadly his name escapes me (it was over ten years ago) who was always hanging around her. When me and my friend were going to move in with her for a student house, she and her male friend were going to join us. So I would put bets on it being him. All I can remember is him being a very big Morrissey fan.

SHR probably got Leon to help with the structure/editing of the book.
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  #577  
Old 27-02-2019, 22:52
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SHR probably got Leon to help with the structure/editing of the book.
They should have sent it to a pro like me. There would be none of this shit.
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  #578  
Old 27-02-2019, 23:11
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I thought Faster was drawing in part from the ideas in 1984 as well and The Trial. Depictions of a society where morality is laid out by those with power....I always took Nicky’s ‘The opening line is: 'I am an architect/They call me a butcher' - and of course, he's been carving into his arm and all that...’ as tongue in cheek delivered with an eye roll..or exhaustion..... but of course there’s a lot of self-hate, nihilism running through and again the recurring theme in his lyrics of everything being corrupted by age, an obsession with truth no matter the consequences and maybe society speeding up and no longer reflecting on whether anything matters or has value. Faster may refer to society or to fasting – a form of protest or of self harm. Easy to give up when society doesn’t like you to stand out but why stand out if everything ultimately means nothing.....I'd love a book analysing the lyrics really much more than the one we may actually never be about to get...

Or, of course, it could mean this

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I actually tend to agree with your points about WLW (and this is not a dig) but your comment reminded me of this bit from Withdrawn Traces.

There are a few laughs to be had from the book then?

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Originally Posted by Routine Builder View Post
With regards to WLW, I'm not trying to paint a definitive interpretation of the lyric or essay. The fact is that the lyric is very emotive and is so because of the choice editing by Nicky. Usually it was James who edited lyrics but for whatever reason the band chose to have Nicky edit them for JPFL.

Also the lyric doesn't sit easily with Richey's other lyrics. Richey is not one to speak in his view from the first person. In the essay, it's clear that Richey is inhabiting a persona rather than necessarily speaking with his own voice. The lyric sounds like a direct message from Richey with little or ambiguity which quite honestly is not his style.
Nicky's mentioned the likely link with 'The Entertainer' hasn't he? A film Richey loved and when you read the full piece it certainly reads like a tale from an old music hall hasbeen along with a few music hall lines.....Wish me luck as you wave me goodbyyyye', Goodnight sweetheart.... Hell, maybe Richey would be seeing some fine old justice in Resistance is Futile held off the top spot by The Greatest Showman, ha
Still, could be read as analogy. A farewell of a kind. He left it with them I reckon Nicky has earned license to draw out a song as a tribute/a goodbye from a friend...let him take what he will. I personally feel like it comes over as a suicide note in the rewriting but appreciate that's refuted.
I can see it may cause upset but as has been noted the band did produce the piece in it's entirety so the song is Nicky's version of a piece left to him and not an attempt to misrepresent Richey's work....not that I'm saying that be what you're saying but maybe what his sister feels...
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  #579  
Old 28-02-2019, 00:15
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Martin Hall said in the Escape from History doc that James phoned him up and said he couldn’t reach Richey so Martin told him to go and catch his flight to NY or wherever they were going and he’d check on Richey. He had the room opened and it was him who discovered what was in the room. The thing is, I don’t think anyone in the know ever said that it was James who went into the room, I think it was always just assumed it was him because it was the logical conclusion given that they were at the hotel together. I honestly can’t think of a single interview where James ever said he went into the room. I might be wrong though.

As for the 24 hour clock, I was sceptical at first, but I think it’s probably the truth. Rachel Edwards stated that the Metropolitan Police acknowledged that the time on the toll receipt was in fact 2:55 am which probably means they had evidence to support their claim. I also don’t think the fact he was seen by many people leaving the Embassy Hotel at 7 am can be disputed either. I always thought Britain had loads of CCTV cameras everywhere because of the violence associated with the Troubles in Northern Ireland and if that’s the case, why was there no footage of any of his movements?

Sorry, I have yet to read through since last time I posted so if this answered already forgive me as this is then off topic. In everything I've read or ever looked at I know it was always said that Richey was spotted at the hotel around 7am. I know on several occasions I have wondered ok, but by whom? Did he go to the front desk and check out? I don't believe I have seen this addressed? Who saw him? I could be wrong so just wondering if anyone knows more about that or could point me in the right direction...

Last edited by vaiden; 28-02-2019 at 00:17. Reason: spelling and grammar and over excitement about more news on the book
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  #580  
Old 28-02-2019, 01:22
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Reading through the thread and parts drawn from the book my impression based only from these posts is that she feels shut out, doesn't matter if that's true or not or of her own making or not, he had a life with the band she knew little of because as she herself as said he didn't talk about it with her and of course she wasn't there...our big brothers grow up. It doesn't sound like she saw the box passed to Jo personally and the band have had a platform for feelings she's had no means to express. Conversations and impressions are skewered maybe to fit her own perspective....these ideas expressed at some point by Jo (who didn't want to be interviewed for the book it seems clear? and the band haven't spoken of her because it's private but also because they have said they didn't know her.....if there's no connection it's easy for her to therefore become used as the 'oracle') that he was unhappy with the persona he had - Rachel and/or SHR? blames the band but Richey spoke publicly of his frustration....He was so young when he started out I don't know if he realised that when you portray an image that's what you're in danger of becoming for good. People won't see past it. Pigeon hole ticked. Fuck all the political history on The Holy Bible and tell me more about the self mutilation and anorexia...of course that must have been frustrating and he can only have blamed himself/felt trapped surely, precisely because he wasn't an idiot.

I can understand her anger, hear me out, because she was his sister and the band were around him so much through the time up to his disappearance why didn't they do more.....of course it's an unfair question, why didn't she, why didn't his family, why , why why.... what about his family, allusions to church, moving house, 'they fuck you up your mum and dad...they may not mean to but....'.....you can look at everything and find nothing makes sense ....for things to make sense there must be someone to blame. Maybe there is and maybe there isn't and maybe it's a bit of lots of things all mixed up and maybe, weirdly, the band were actually just too damn close and you're often the last person who can help when you're too close

I don't recall Nicky blaming the church in part for Richey's problems - blamed The Priory's pseudoreligious bollox for not helping and he was surely right. I do recall Richey talking about being stuck on the idea of reconciling yourself with a God, didn't have to be God could be someone God-like in your life but everyone dies/leaves so how can they be God....as I think that's something like the first of the 12 steps it really wasn't gonna fecking help an over-thinker was it??? Maybe if he has criticised beyond this it grates because she's found solace from the church. It is weird families and religion.....speaking as a erm brought up now lapsed Catholic it isn't true that it messes you up completely, too easy to blame it for that, but when you no longer follow it you can remain close to family members who do but there can be, I dunno, it's a mindset that shapes so many ideas that you just can't share, it can be distancing and confusing but I digress....

SHR is just too inexperienced. It doesn't sound like a biography more an outlet of despair and anger...In need of a good deal of editing before publication but really in need of a more experienced writer who would talk to everyone and remain objective. Maybe scrap the book and pick up the phone...
She does, and she and Jo - at least Jo in the 90s - seem to identify as a club of The Wronged who have been pushed out and snubbed by the band (I’m barely paraphrasing here, this is not me being snide). Again, I get their grief, their feelings. But Rachel is not the band’s sister. Jo was not their friend. I am sure the band were polite and compassionate in interactions with either of them, but I have no idea what they want. It’s another case of the band being unable to win. Should they have pulled Jo and Rachel into the spotlight with them? That would have been bizarre and arguably cruel. The band can’t give Rachel the closeness she didn’t have, and shouldn’t be lambasted for having had it themselves.

You’re spot on re: the public image/persona thing.

Certainly her anger is entirely understandable but that doesn’t make it right. Same with the need to blame someone etc, it’s all obviously grief and the need for answers, but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to take innocent, also-grieving parties down for it. Rachel wants, as anyone in her position would, what she heartbreakingly can’t have: answers. An ending. But taking shots at others won’t give her that. Everyone has suffered more than enough already in this story. It’s beyond sad that yet more unnecessary hurt is being caused.

I think the Times article and others are correct in their observation in that the reason no-one can make sense of Richey’s story is because it doesn’t make sense. You can’t force it to because you need it, alas. The only person with answers and explanations is him, and honestly I don’t think he knew/would know looking back wtf was going on himself half the time, such was his state.

Nicky on Richey & religion, from the book: ‘he’s always had this this thing about it. I’ve never really talked to him about it, but he’s always made out that it really pissed him off and fucked him up.’ I’ve always thought religion was one of the biggest, most obvious things Richey had a lasting fixation and struggle with, it’s one of the many things that drew me to him. I went through Catholic schooling and ended up with the opposite feelings that you have, in my experience it fucks you up massively, on levels it’s very hard for logic to reach and in ways it’s equally difficult to shift. Honestly I think it’s one of the things that’s most shaped me as a person, though it’s not something I consider as A Feature Of Me or tend to go into all the time, if you get me. Blathering with all this because of Rachel saying Richey didn’t ‘seem’ bothered... she also says the minister they saw was ‘evangelical and over the top’, that Richey was very ‘agnostic and questioning’ and ‘for him it was far more complex than being a believer or an atheist’. If you’re that bothered that young... it doesn’t bode well, as far as I’m concerned.

You’re right to point out his hand-wringing with the 12 step stuff later on. I am struggling to face those pages properly, tbh. But anyway, Richey’s preoccupation with religion is there throughout his writing, imagery, everything - I think it may indeed be that Rachel takes umbrage with the idea that he was messed up by/about religion because the church has helped her so much. Which, if it has, good, I’m glad, but you can’t rewrite your brother to suit that.

‘Scrap the book and pick up the phone’ - nail on head. SHR has no clue what she’s doing except when it came to weedling her way into this position. She doesn’t know Richey, she doesn’t know the band - I mean these as even on the level we do, not KNOW know, despite her access to Richey’s... freaking EVERYTHING, seemingly - she doesn’t know how to sodding write. She has no credentials except her creepery. It’s repugnant. The more I go over the book, the more I think on it, the stronger my reaction.

The reason I said earlier that ‘Jo in the 90s’ seemed to think a thing is because having considered that she refused to be part of the project proper, and her latest letter quoted is from 1998, it’s very possible Jo no longer feels the way she did/is portrayed to in the book. As such it seems further questionable that she is treated as infallible therein. She comes across a certain way - definitely not the one intended - which she may well not be happy with as an older woman now. I wonder if she could be a party that has a problem with it.
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  #581  
Old 28-02-2019, 01:48
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Christ, I’ve been keeping an eye on this thread all day and feeling increasingly angry with every post (as in angry at the revelations, obviously not the posts themselves!). Thanks for taking one for the team, sofarsideways. What an absolute fucking MESS this sounds. A spiteful, bitter and resentful mess at that. I don’t really know what else to say tbh.
ok Wait a minute wait a minute! Again apologies for not reading the entire thread but with each post given about this book the bile in my stomach rises, the fan in me rages and I can't possibly read more without commenting so here goes....

I am a big fan of Richey's lyrics but also his pretty accurate descriptions of some of his problems gathered from information provided by other's descriptions of said problems who don't know or even heard of Richey. I also know Richey was no saint. I feel like I can say that with a reasonable amount of certainty only knowing his age, maturity as stated by him and other members of the band.his profession, and the opportunities he had (travel, exposure to fans etc, and descriptions of those who were around him at the time). I have never fully believed many things Richey said about sex, groupies, prostitutes, wanking. I say this knowing that what we say and what we actually do does not always correspond. This has been proven time and again through empirical data published and disseminated in scientific journals. I have always thought the whole Thailand thing with the prostitute was a little sketchy. This is certainly my own opinion. I say this because of him cuddling up to the reporter and offering this information without being asked. It doesn't mean it didn't happen I just found it interesting he made sure to pull the reporter aside to tell her. He clearly had a lot of things going on mentally along with the fact that we can't deny he and the band were often pushing some agenda. I could base this on the BBC documentary alone when the remaining members of the band were watching interviews and James describes Richey using the Alexander effect, an acting technique and Nicky responds something like he had a manifesto or things he had set to say and how he was making sure he was getting it all in--paraphrase

Another point that strikes me is that he spent the majority of his time with the band and I have no doubt they knew as much about him and probably more than his family or anyone else. I only say this because particularly in your teens and twenties are you going to call your mum to say "Hey, I got blackout wasted, had sex with a groupie". It has never sat well with me in an article where Rachel, with all due respect, said she saw Richey with shorts or something and he had cuts and self-harm all over his legs but they didn't discuss it. Again forgive me as perhaps this may be a cultural thing or my family is odd but if I saw my brother with cuts all over him, and I have in real life, I said something like what the F are you doing? This suggests he did not tell his family everything and most of us don't or we show different sides to different people

My head is about to explode as I have so many other things to say now but I will leave it with it is unacceptable to blame anyone or everyone else for whatever happened to Richey especially having info on his mental state, medication which may take some time to work and stopping them without titrating is dangerous or if he was even taking it. Richey himself said something to the effect that you can't have somebody around 24/7 to make sure you eat. I would place more importance on his mental state of mind. Unless the band drugged him and/or forced him at gunpoint to do whatever it is that he did, I think it is irresponsible and irrational to blame anyone else. Where I'm from you can't even make a report about an adult being missing until 24 or maybe 48 hours have elapsed if there is no foul play suspected......Ugh! This is not the band's fault. It is not his family's fault.

And here I thought the book may provide info on whether or not Nicky attended uni with Richey, what Nicky's major was, and whether or not Richey wrote his papers lol. Only kidding. I love Mr. Wire. All these years later it seems like is about to cry when he discusses Richey.

Last edited by vaiden; 28-02-2019 at 01:56. Reason: added last comment on Wire
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  #582  
Old 28-02-2019, 02:03
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Will try and post some more band stuff tomorrow. And some lolz! Because there are lolz, both of writing fail and actual Richey anecdote (how legit any of those are is varyingly up for debate, but). Like one of Richey’s old girlfriends saying Richey accused her of checking out Nicky’s, um, stuff when he rocked up to a double date wearing cycling shorts (WIRE.) and the girl being like ‘?!? not remotely interested in Nick’ but Richey insisting and storming off in a huff. Enjoyed that tale immensely. For reasons.
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  #583  
Old 28-02-2019, 07:35
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That's another thing about the book. From what I can gather there is so much nastiness and outright lies in it that any new information or stories offered up has to be doubted or really scrutinised and that stops any actual enjoyment. For me anyway.
Also because the attacks on the band have already left a nasty taste in my mouth this will bias my opinion on anything else SHR writes.
That doesn't mean I can't be objective about each piece of information just that I'm less willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.
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  #584  
Old 28-02-2019, 09:47
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Nicky's mentioned the likely link with 'The Entertainer' hasn't he? A film Richey loved and when you read the full piece it certainly reads like a tale from an old music hall hasbeen along with a few music hall lines.....Wish me luck as you wave me goodbyyyye', Goodnight sweetheart.... Hell, maybe Richey would be seeing some fine old justice in Resistance is Futile held off the top spot by The Greatest Showman, ha
Still, could be read as analogy. A farewell of a kind. He left it with them I reckon Nicky has earned license to draw out a song as a tribute/a goodbye from a friend...let him take what he will. I personally feel like it comes over as a suicide note in the rewriting but appreciate that's refuted.
I can see it may cause upset but as has been noted the band did produce the piece in it's entirety so the song is Nicky's version of a piece left to him and not an attempt to misrepresent Richey's work....not that I'm saying that be what you're saying but maybe what his sister feels...
That's fair enough. It's the only lyric on the album that feels coloured by Richey's disappearance. I don't believe Nicky wanted to misrepresent Richey's words here, but perhaps (understandably) emotion seeped into the writing. I think anyone who has lost someone to suicide would understand searching through their words for hidden meanings and subtext. Obviously the original text practically invites one to make these links to what came after. Especially when Richey left nothing behind for the band or his family. I honestly can't imagine how much pain that facet has caused.
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Old 28-02-2019, 22:52
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She does, and she and Jo - at least Jo in the 90s - seem to identify as a club of The Wronged who have been pushed out and snubbed by the band (Iím barely paraphrasing here, this is not me being snide). Again, I get their grief, their feelings. But Rachel is not the bandís sister. Jo was not their friend. I am sure the band were polite and compassionate in interactions with either of them, but I have no idea what they want. Itís another case of the band being unable to win. Should they have pulled Jo and Rachel into the spotlight with them? That would have been bizarre and arguably cruel. The band canít give Rachel the closeness she didnít have, and shouldnít be lambasted for having had it themselves.

.....

Certainly her anger is entirely understandable but that doesnít make it right. Same with the need to blame someone etc, itís all obviously grief and the need for answers, but that doesnít mean itís acceptable to take innocent, also-grieving parties down for it. Rachel wants, as anyone in her position would, what she heartbreakingly canít have: answers. An ending. But taking shots at others wonít give her that. Everyone has suffered more than enough already in this story. Itís beyond sad that yet more unnecessary hurt is being caused.

I think the Times article and others are correct in their observation in that the reason no-one can make sense of Richeyís story is because it doesnít make sense. You canít force it to because you need it, alas. The only person with answers and explanations is him, and honestly I donít think he knew/would know looking back wtf was going on himself half the time, such was his state....

ĎScrap the book and pick up the phoneí - nail on head. SHR has no clue what sheís doing except when it came to weedling her way into this position. She doesnít know Richey, she doesnít know the band - I mean these as even on the level we do, not KNOW know, despite her access to Richeyís... freaking EVERYTHING, seemingly - she doesnít know how to sodding write. She has no credentials except her creepery. Itís repugnant. The more I go over the book, the more I think on it, the stronger my reaction.

The reason I said earlier that ĎJo in the 90sí seemed to think a thing is because having considered that she refused to be part of the project proper, and her latest letter quoted is from 1998, itís very possible Jo no longer feels the way she did/is portrayed to in the book. As such it seems further questionable that she is treated as infallible therein. She comes across a certain way - definitely not the one intended - which she may well not be happy with as an older woman now. I wonder if she could be a party that has a problem with it
I feel we're getting a second hand perspective of Jo from the book, as it seems you do too? Recalled conversations from 20 years ago are always at risk of being stripped of context and she was only young. I feel if she's said no to being involved they should respect that and not rely too heavily on what she said many years ago or at least take more care with context.

I don't necessarily feel his sister's anger is justified but I can see why something like this leads to it, emotions are so intense....what I do agree is wrong is SHR walking in and taking it all as objective fact and thinking it's fine to (try) and print it all. They appear to be friends but that too just means objectivity has flown out the window and a good friend wouldn't have let her expose herself to this extent.

So far the book doesn't seem to be about Richey so much as about reclaiming him....but the only reason for the interest in a book is because he was in the band and all of his writings and work went into the band what's the point of trying to strip all that away. Of course he was more than that but that's never been disputed, He was more than just a self-harmer, it was frustrating that that took away the focus from the acute intelligence of his lyrics, from the sheer volume of knowledge he acquired, understood and could articulate and offer opinions on, a shame his humour was sometimes missed.....but the book seems in danger of ignoring all that too...all trace withdrawn indeed



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Originally Posted by sofarsideways View Post
Nicky on Richey & religion, from the book: Ďheís always had this this thing about it. Iíve never really talked to him about it, but heís always made out that it really pissed him off and fucked him up.í Iíve always thought religion was one of the biggest, most obvious things Richey had a lasting fixation and struggle with, itís one of the many things that drew me to him. I went through Catholic schooling and ended up with the opposite feelings that you have, in my experience it fucks you up massively, on levels itís very hard for logic to reach and in ways itís equally difficult to shift. Honestly I think itís one of the things thatís most shaped me as a person, though itís not something I consider as A Feature Of Me or tend to go into all the time, if you get me. Blathering with all this because of Rachel saying Richey didnít Ďseemí bothered... she also says the minister they saw was Ďevangelical and over the topí, that Richey was very Ďagnostic and questioningí and Ďfor him it was far more complex than being a believer or an atheistí. If youíre that bothered that young... it doesnít bode well, as far as Iím concerned.

Youíre right to point out his hand-wringing with the 12 step stuff later on. I am struggling to face those pages properly, tbh. But anyway, Richeyís preoccupation with religion is there throughout his writing, imagery, everything - I think it may indeed be that Rachel takes umbrage with the idea that he was messed up by/about religion because the church has helped her so much. Which, if it has, good, Iím glad, but you canít rewrite your brother to suit that.
I know what you mean about religion...once a Catholic always a Catholic they say....I'd describe myself as agnostic as far as belief is concerned but with no time for the church...it does get under your skin. I went to a Catholic school. Church till I was 12 and then it became my choice. Choice was no. But it is hard to argue yourself into any position 100% so agnosticism seems to be the only place in many ways, the default, but if you need to feel definite well by definition that isn't feeling definite, if Richey needed to make sense and find the truth it was never going to help him was it. And you do need that maybe more when you're younger, I know I spent a long time thinking through it all. And the morality is completely corrupt and I can see how some people must feel completely isolated by it because as with so many 'groups' to belong there must be an 'us' and a 'them'....I hate that.....And the sexism. I could go on. Don't? No. I took to Camus' ideas on God though....and I came to Camus through this band so



Quote:
Originally Posted by vaiden View Post
I am a big fan of Richey's lyrics but also his pretty accurate descriptions of some of his problems gathered from information provided by other's descriptions of said problems who don't know or even heard of Richey. I also know Richey was no saint. I feel like I can say that with a reasonable amount of certainty only knowing his age, maturity as stated by him and other members of the band.his profession, and the opportunities he had (travel, exposure to fans etc, and descriptions of those who were around him at the time). I have never fully believed many things Richey said about sex, groupies, prostitutes, wanking. I say this knowing that what we say and what we actually do does not always correspond. This has been proven time and again through empirical data published and disseminated in scientific journals. I have always thought the whole Thailand thing with the prostitute was a little sketchy. This is certainly my own opinion. I say this because of him cuddling up to the reporter and offering this information without being asked. It doesn't mean it didn't happen I just found it interesting he made sure to pull the reporter aside to tell her. He clearly had a lot of things going on mentally along with the fact that we can't deny he and the band were often pushing some agenda. I could base this on the BBC documentary alone when the remaining members of the band were watching interviews and James describes Richey using the Alexander effect, an acting technique and Nicky responds something like he had a manifesto or things he had set to say and how he was making sure he was getting it all in--paraphrase
Fair points but as he did speak about going to see a prostitute when they were in Bangkok I see no reason to disbelieve him regarding that. I'm trying to remember the journalist that took him to task on it later unwilling to let it just be brushed off when it seemed the antithesis of so much he stood for and he got upset/frustrated a little. I can see how maybe from his persepective it meant nothing and he was just trying to make himself feel something or whatever the reasoning goes as if it's a form of self harm but it's not the same another person isn't there to be exploited like a razor blade. It is something I didn't understand as that didn't seem to be in character .... although he did have an ego it seems fair to say......but he was never a 'lad' I never doubted he wasn't speaking the truth....I think he may have regretted speaking the truth. Should've lied like everybody else? Or just not done it like some stupid dumbshit exploitative tourist

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaiden View Post
It has never sat well with me in an article where Rachel, with all due respect, said she saw Richey with shorts or something and he had cuts and self-harm all over his legs but they didn't discuss it. Again forgive me as perhaps this may be a cultural thing or my family is odd but if I saw my brother with cuts all over him, and I have in real life, I said something like what the F are you doing? This suggests he did not tell his family everything and most of us don't or we show different sides to different people.
I think that's quite normal, to not say anything or push, it's surprising what becomes 'normal' or what you don't see even when looking and it's only later really that you see a build up or a pattern... Or just don't know how to start or get quickly rebuffed so move on It's also maybe why in part people harm themselves? it's a way of releasing things because it's not easy to just talk and not everything can be sorted that way anyway and there's anger there too I think, that's one thing that always struck me, he spoke so often about not being aggressive, not violent, very passive but to hurt yourself, people are different it's true, but I think there's a lot of anger there, a lot of rage. It seems 'quiet' cos you turn it all inward, maybe that's the problem.....Maybe you do want to be noticed but maybe you want to be left alone too, maybe you've never felt able to speak up for yourself (I'm generalising not trying to guess the mind of Richey).....And maybe people sometimes tire of the perceived attention seeking - it's what you're not allowed to say but it can come with a heavy dose of self obsession which can be exhausting to be around but later maybe you forget that and beat yourself up for not doing more or blame someone else for not doing more.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Routine Builder View Post
That's fair enough. It's the only lyric on the album that feels coloured by Richey's disappearance. I don't believe Nicky wanted to misrepresent Richey's words here, but perhaps (understandably) emotion seeped into the writing. I think anyone who has lost someone to suicide would understand searching through their words for hidden meanings and subtext. Obviously the original text practically invites one to make these links to what came after. Especially when Richey left nothing behind for the band or his family. I honestly can't imagine how much pain that facet has caused.
Definitely
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