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  #46  
Old 16-01-2011, 00:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_hound View Post
^ I just heard and saw a number of comments both at the time of JFTPL and PFAYM, from fans who did not see the point of JFTL. They felt the Manics should leave the past behind, and simply didn't enjoy the Richey written songs. I think I also remember reading similar comments from a guy on an Oasis fans forum - though he did say he was quite pleasantly surprised when he actually listened to JFTPL.
Can you please stop calling it JFTPL - it's called 'Journal for Plague Lovers', there's no 'T' anywhere in the title and I assume you've listened to the album and title track.
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  #47  
Old 16-01-2011, 00:39
Bryter Layter Bryter Layter is offline
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@Phil C...why would I take offense? Couldn't care less, TBH. I've never heard Wire claim ownership for anything on that track other then providing the title. Fair enough if you've seen a quote from him stating otherwise, I personally have not which explains my response.
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  #48  
Old 17-01-2011, 00:12
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Originally Posted by Ermintrude_the_Cow View Post
@Hound, do you not think both Richey and Nicky have aspects of romanticism and socialism in their lyrics? I'm not sure I'd subscribe to the view that Nicky is the "political one" and Richey is the "romantic one."
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Originally Posted by the_hound View Post
^ that's a valid point. Though Nickey does veer more towards politics and Richey to being a romantic.

I think Nicky is one of the Romantics at heart along with Richey. Romanticism challenged and questioned the norms questioned the domination of church and king; questioned the idea that we as a species were somehow above nature and that nature was there merely to be exploited for profit. Richey's influences seemed to lie more heavily with existentialism....Nietzche, Kieerkegaard, Camus. For the Romantics the individual and their choices were important but they saw the individual as part of the bigger picture, part of nature as a whole....existentialism seems a bleaker view of the individual, the inevitability of the suffering and the absurdity in our attempt to give life meaning.
Nicky's quoted from the same writers but his views possibly tend to the Romantic - less nihilistic.......?
"Where there's nature, or where there is breathing, there are true moments of joy. You've just got to recognise them. And not take them for granted. And that's what I try to do, have moments of elation in life, however small, five minutes a day, and be able to think "Yeah, that'll do. That'll do me, now"." (Nicky, wireless philosopher)

Still writers like Camus (not that bleak) & Sartre were writing after the wars and man's inhumanity to man seemed to have no constraints


I like pre and post Richey Perrin years incidentally

And the romantics Byron, Shelley, Blake over the Nietzche and Kierkegaard ....but i do like Camus a lot too....incidentally, more than Sartre

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Last edited by raven; 17-01-2011 at 00:15.
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  #49  
Old 17-01-2011, 12:40
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"Richey Perrin"
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  #50  
Old 17-01-2011, 13:27
the_hound the_hound is offline
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Well, no offence, but I think I'll believe Nicky Wire over you. And Nicky Wire said that he contributed to the second verse - from memory the quote was something like 'stuff about society getting faster' (don't have the quote to hand but I remember him saying something along those lines).

As for the article itself, it very much over-states the division between the Manics fan groups. I don't doubt there are some people only like Richey or Nicky (I remember an NME review of a 1996 gig where an old fan announced 'Every single new fan is a total wanker'), but even a quick look around the internet would have shown the writer that (s)he is massively wrong in saying this is the average state of affairs.

As for the main idea - I sort of agree. Nick's lyrics are certainly more down-to-Earth than Richey's tended to be, and more likely to be about a single issue, whereas Richey tended (especially on 'THB') to deal in more general themes, either by creating a narrator to inhabit ('Yes', 'Small Black Flowers', '4st 7lb') or by pulling in references from all over the place ('Revol', 'Of Walking Abortion').

For me, 'The Holy Bible' remains their masterpiece, musically and lyrically. The scope of the words, in terms of themes and the language in which they are explored has no equal in rock music. But my next favourite album, lyrically, isn't 'Journal' (which I do love) but 'Know Your Enemy' and generally I find myself drawn to Nick's lyrics perhaps more than Richey's, perhaps because I'm more into politics than pain. In fact, I've always seen 'KYE' as Nick's version of 'THB' - it's an angry record, covering global political themes (remember that 'THB' isn't just about Richey - it's a very political album). Tracks like 'His Last Painting' are actually quite Richey-esque in some ways; it's not just about Nick feeling down, it's about the way people are happy to be slaves rather than have choice - rather like 'All Is Vanity' in fact.

Another poster in this thread made the excellent point that we only have a few year's worth of Richey's work compared to 15 of Nick writing alone. One of the most interesting aspects of 'Journal' was seeing how Richey and Nick were actually heading down similar paths - 'She Bathed Herself In A Bath Of Bleech' is not, for example, a million miles from 'You're Tender And You're Tired' and i've already compared 'All Is Vanity' with 'His Last Painting'. Richey was increasingly surreal in his lyrics on that album, which Nick seldom is, but thematically they perhaps would not have been as far apart as some would suggest.

Oh, and the argument in the article about 'Masses Against The Classes' was rather odd. Apparently it doesn't work because it was written by a band playing in stadiums, but 'Imperial Bodybags' is more genuine. But the Manics were still millionaires when they wrote 'Bodybags', still pampered middle-aged men so the argument really doesn't work. When they played 'Masses' in Manchester on the PFAYM tour, Nick introduced it by saying how fitting it was to play it at the birthplace of the Trade Union congress. That has nothing to do with the size of venue the band play, it's to do with their convictions and I've always thought it a lazy assumption that because someone becomes successful that their principles suddenly go out the window - Tony Benn never starved but few would doubt his principles. I don't mind the writer disliking 'Masses' but the reason (s)he's given is a bit silly.

Oh, and hello to the writer - must be an interesting introduction to the forum!

Hi, there. Thanks for the feedback. I like that most of the users on this forum actually argue back intelligently rather than simply posting posts along the line of 'fuck off' or 'what's your obsession with semi colons?' - I feel I'm getting educated when reading posts here. Unusual for an internet forum, or the internet in general!

Okay firstly I did overstate the gap for effect, but certainly the gap does exist. (remember I only just joined this forum, so wasn't that familiar with the online Manic fanbase at the time - and I do have some friends who are very vocal against the Manics'output post Richey.)

Secondly - I really love the way Richey often inhabited his songs with narrators. I know some people these days are very negative about Richey, especially the '4 Reel' side of him, but there is no denying he was one of the great poets of modern times. And the NME would have us believe that bloody Pete Doherty is a modern day poet!

Thirdly I really need to listen to some of these Nicky Wire songs again that you have drawn parallels to with Richey's work. Though SATT, and PFAYM suggests that Wire has began to distance himself again from Richey - I can't see anything of those two albums which is comparable to Richey.

Finally regarding 'Bodybags' - I don't see it as a class anthem like 'Masses', instead its an attack on Bush and Blair, and their horribly misguided wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the cost to the young men serving in our armed forces. It doesn't how wealthy you are, anyone can be appalled by American/ British foreign policy of the 00s, so no I don't see my point as a contradiction.
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  #51  
Old 17-01-2011, 22:58
Phil C Phil C is offline
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Originally Posted by the_hound View Post
Thirdly I really need to listen to some of these Nicky Wire songs again that you have drawn parallels to with Richey's work. Though SATT, and PFAYM suggests that Wire has began to distance himself again from Richey - I can't see anything of those two albums which is comparable to Richey.
I'd say the title track of 'Tigers' is quite Richey-esque - Richey often wrote about political leaders and SATT's examination of Tony Blair's legacy is something I could imagine Richey being interested in. Nick has said that 'Your Love Alone' is an imaginary conversation with Richey, so presumably in some way represents the way he expressed himself. 'Indian Summer' has some Richey-esque lines - 'If God persists, persists in saying 'yes'/I guess we'll have, we'll have to test ourselves' reflects Richey's obsession with religion.

On 'Postcards', I'd say 'Auto-Intoxication' has some Richey influence. Richey was massively influenced by JG Ballard and of course 'Billion Balconies' is based around Ballardian ideas. Richey never owned a computer - we have no idea how he'd have reacted to the internet - but Ballard's ideas of everyone being their own film star is a topic it would have been no surprise if he'd gotten to eventually. And Richey was critical of corporate culture and everything being a product - 'Don't be evil / Just be corporate' has a delightedly sarcastic Richey edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_hound View Post
Finally regarding 'Bodybags' - I don't see it as a class anthem like 'Masses', instead its an attack on Bush and Blair, and their horribly misguided wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the cost to the young men serving in our armed forces. It doesn't how wealthy you are, anyone can be appalled by American/ British foreign policy of the 00s, so no I don't see my point as a contradiction.
That depends on your definiton of class. If you see class as simply the economic placement your current income puts you at, then you have a point. But class is a lot more complicated than that - it's cultural, it's something you're brought up in. If 'Imperial Bodybags' is rooted in political philosophy, 'Masses Against The Classes' is rooted in the same kind of blind belief as the Richey co-written 'You Love Us' mixed with a belief in the trade union movement and class structure. I still think your point doesn't really work.
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  #52  
Old 17-01-2011, 23:14
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I like pre and post Richey Perrin years incidentally




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  #53  
Old 18-01-2011, 06:54
the_hound the_hound is offline
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^ Intriguing points from Phil C. Will bear those in mind.
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  #54  
Old 05-02-2011, 16:18
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Richey without a doubt. But I do think that had a lot of similiar beliefs, politics, romance etc
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