a rant on feminism...equality...etc

[jamesons]

i need a rant. sorry.
this is something i have no right to rant about, and something that i usually want to hit people (repeatedly and on the head, possibly with a teaspoon or some other small but deadly implement) for ranting about… positive male attention. i seldom get it – i'm not pretty enough to get unsolicited flirtation, and only get flirted with if i dazzle people with my *ahem* sparkling personality.

but on thursday night in sheffield, i got my first taste of unsolicited and somewhat aggressive positive male attention. according to samantha, it was like bees around a terrified honey pot. i don’t know why – i didn’t suddenly become beautiful, i wasn’t wearing anything more revealing than normal, and i certainly wasn’t being flirty (too busy looking at the bands!). men were just very testosterone-y that night.

i didn’t know how to react to the sudden upsurge in male interest. i’m not used to that... i didn’t know how to respond to being carried around by blokes i hardly knew/didn’t know (bear in mind i am very small and light), being put on their laps and held there, being trapped in corners. i didn’t want to be impolite, but it made me feel very uncomfortable.

i was lucky there were people i knew around me, people that i could shout for if i needed to.
samantha, talking about it after, said it made her realise just how difficult it would be to alert anyone if she felt particularly scared – she said she'd feel melodramatic if she shouted, and both of us feel impolite pushing people away.
i hated that it felt like i was at fault, even though i know i wasn’t.

i hated it. i hated that i didn’t feel i had any say over my personal space. i’m angry that some men seem to think it’s acceptable to foist themselves on girls. i’m sure in some situations, some girls like that. i hate that the assumption is made that you do, and that you’re at fault if you object. i hated feeling vulnerable, even though i was at least with friends and at least i knew or knew of all the blokes who were making advances. but when darren suddenly swept me off my feet, held me above his (very high up) head and pointed out how light my ‘exquisite little body’ is, i tried and failed to make him put me down. i've never realised more acutely just how physically weak i am.

another grr: i realise increasingly how feminism has become a dirty word. i’m lucky enough to be brought up by a feminist, and so i know that it is not about man-hating, or about implementing matriarchy, or that crapy, some feminists are man-haters – the extreme ones. just as some conservatives are racist fascists, and some of the left are raving commies. but that’s not what it’s about, and it infuriates me that it’s been hijacked to mean that. female anti-feminists annoy me the most. if it wasn’t for feminism, i wouldn’t have the vote. you wouldn’t be able to decide to have a career. you wouldn’t be able to buy a pint of beer for god’s sake! (mum regales me with the story of her having to order one pint and two halves – dad drank the halves.) anyone who believes that men and women should have equal opportunities is a feminist, whether you accept that or not. and it’s not as though feminism is anachronistic, as has recently been claimed. in britain, women earn on average 16% less than men for the same work; 2 women a week are murdered by a partner or ex-partner; men don’t get extensive paternity leave when clearly they should; ‘nagging’ is a valid excuse for murder; the legal system can use a woman’s underwear as evidence that she was ‘asking for rape’… on the wall of irritation, i have been driven pretty high up. perhaps you can tell.

another thing that got my goat (did i ever have a goat?) was this whole furore over the appointment of a gay bishop of reading. i can never understand why homosexuality is so demonised. if it makes both partners happy, if it hurts and exploits no one, i fail to see how terrible it is. i realise and acknowledge the various arguements around the place but, inside, thati s my feeling on the subject. zoe williams wrote quite an amusing article on july 8th in the guardian about the debate:

<i>'first, the extremists, or evangelicals, or whatever else you choose to call the homophobes in the church when, for some reason, "bigots" won't do, say that homosexuality is forbidden in the bible. then the "liberals" (who would, in any other gathering, be called "the normal people") say that the bible forbids or endorses a number of things that the modern world would deem acceptable or unacceptable (respectively). they often mention slavery in leviticus.

the extremists, unwilling to say: "well, yes, we're exactly the kind of people who would have stood against the tide on that one as well," instead fall back on: "that wasn't the same." and then they're all stumped. the liberals have to admit that, no, exploiting a human life through bondage was not exactly the same as discriminating against a human on the basis of his or her sexuality. they have to accept that they're dealing with opponents who do not understand logic or analogy. and the extremists have to accept that there are some funny old coves out there - but, not to worry, armed with enough scripture, you can hammer them into submission'.</i>

i’m sorry if i’ve offended anybody… but i needed to rant. i’ll leave it at that. for now.

[alexliamw]

*Points Jamesons in the general direction of.......you guessed it.......Perdita!*

[Thomas]

well I'm sorry, but Perdita is busy right now cooking my meal. Maybe later she'll eventually come online - depends on if the meal is good.

[relic]

You are completely right, it's completely out of order for people to manhandle you without your permission.

I'm a short person myself, and know what you mean about feeling weak and helpless. However, I've grown out of that now :)

Don't be scared of screaming, yelling, or hitting people if you don't like what is happening to you. It's YOUR body.

relic

[pretty in pink]

Originally posted by jamesons
.

another grr: i realise increasingly how feminism has become a dirty word. i’m lucky enough to be brought up by a feminist, and so i know that it is not about man-hating, or about implementing matriarchy, or that crapy, some feminists are man-haters – the extreme ones. just as some conservatives are racist fascists, and some of the left are raving commies. but that’s not what it’s about, and it infuriates me that it’s been hijacked to mean that. female anti-feminists annoy me the most. if it wasn’t for feminism, i wouldn’t have the vote. you wouldn’t be able to decide to have a career. you wouldn’t be able to buy a pint of beer for god’s sake!

I´ve never understood either why feminism is considered to be so irritating and dangerous. I would imagine that any reasonable person would be a feminist, regardless of their sex. Maybe it´s because people don´t know what feminism is about, but most people don´t even seam to be willing to find out. And I firmly believe that feminism isn´t only of advantage to women but to everyone. Or it could be, if men wanted to participate in it. Would it be different if the term feminism would be replaced with gender-equality or something? Or would it still be as repulsive to people?

[Thomas]

... my previous post wasn't mean to be some kind of insensitive shit really. Sorry, erm yes.

[MrsCarbohydrate]

Originally posted by pretty in pink
I´ve never understood either why feminism is considered to be so irritating and dangerous. I would imagine that any reasonable person would be a feminist, regardless of their sex. Maybe it´s because people don´t know what feminism is about, but most people don´t even seam to be willing to find out.


my brother laughs at me for considering myself a feminist. He, and i think a lot of other people, views feminism as hairy legged man hating lesbians in dungarees ranting about how women are better than men. Which is ridiculous, and insulting really.

[alexliamw]

Seeing as Perdita didn't immediately turn up, I'll prove I do have something serious to say myself, even if I am male.

I'm really sorry to hear about your experiences, Jamesons. I despise those kind of men who see women as objects like that, and think they give us a bad name. Its still seen as cool to talk about women in a degrading way and act like that towards them, and I hope the trend of it starting to be seen as idiot-ish (for lack of a real word) continues. Unwanted attention is never great to have to deal with and I'd encourage you to stand up for yourself. If the girl/woman insults or slaps the boy/man, it usually shuts him up quickly, as he's been embarressed in front of his mates.

RE problems with feminism, my only concern (and this is genuine) is that sometimes feminism goes to extremes whereby its actually sexist itself. I mean there is something unequal in that a woman on TV may well say "i hate all men" but a man can't say "i hate all women". Now I'm certainly not saying that men should be saying that kind of thing - just that I dislike women saying the equvalent.

All this said, I realise not all feminists are like this and that the suffragette and feminist movements have done a lot towards restoring equality. And also I recognise that in many sectors there is still sexism against women. I just don't think it should be fought with more sexism.

As for the whole gay bishop thing, I'm right with you - I'm a Christian myself and it makes me very angry that the church is being so bigotted and alienating people. However, there's another thread on this, where I and others explain our arguments more fully:

http://forum.foreverdelayed.org.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=272

Apparently he's resigned from the appointment now. That makes me very sad.

[relic]

Originally posted by Thomas
... my previous post wasn't mean to be some kind of insensitive shit really. Sorry, erm yes.

We know you well enough by now Thomas :) Don't worry about it.

relic

[Thomas]

:)

[Dave]

Originally posted by relic
We know you well enough by now Thomas :) Don't worry about it.

relic

How about this for inequality: If it was me who'd said what Thomas had said, I'd have been run out of town...

[Thomas]

hehehehe :p

[cleans halo]

[Lover of Outrage]

Yeah but Thomas is top totty. *Being deliberately sexist here.

[Thomas]

What is a totty?

:mad:

[holds one hand ready for slap and the other one for stroke]

[relic]

'Totty' describes someone who is only interesting to you because of their physical charms.

relic

[Thomas]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[slaps Karen]

... and I thought you loved the inner me!

edit:

[walks off crying]

[Lover of Outrage]

* Behaves like any bloke in a nightclub :mad: laughs and says to mates "see I told you he was interested" and drunkenly follows Thomas.*






OK lads slightly unfair :D

[relic]

*Is very glad she doesn't go to nightclubs.*

relic

[littlebabynothing79]

Hi Nicky!

I think I know where you're coming from. I dont think there's anything wrong with having feminist ideals. I mean without the Pankhurts where would be or maybe its down to the World Wars? I guess its down to your own perception of feminism and the role of a possibly male dominated society. After all males on average earn at least 20% more than most females :(

What I'm trying to say is...
I hate the way some men make it so obvious they 'like you' and that they want you as a 'domestic instrument.' That drives me mad completely. You can sit at home..be a birthing factory and clean my den! :(

I also get really paranoid and discussed with myself. Hell I dont have a skirt that doesnt bare anything further than my ankle! Yet you get these guys that oogle at you. I see myself as being positively vulgar. I dont know...

Equality isn't necessarily a good thing..but acception definitely is. If we could only tolerate one another and live without prejudice! :confused:

[jamesons]

RE problems with feminism, my only concern (and this is genuine) is that sometimes feminism goes to extremes whereby its actually sexist itself. I mean there is something unequal in that a woman on TV may well say "i hate all men" but a man can't say "i hate all women". Now I'm certainly not saying that men should be saying that kind of thing - just that I dislike women saying the equvalent.

i feel the same. equality is important.
my only point, was that is what feminism is about: equal rights.

littlebabynothing79 - (hello!) i think world war 1 had a lot more to do with implementing feminism than people give credit for (oooh, i feel a thesis coming on!) ...i saw a great cartoon once - of a man marrying a vaccum cleaner. though it was quite apt.

[Furbag]

This is slightly unrelated but really pisses me off. :rolleyes:

When a woman has a bad experience with a man or has a bad perception of men on the whole, in my experience, they tend to think all men are like that, and as Alex said, we are not all bad. There are some nice men out there, but obviously there are some total twats, in fact, i'd say up to a certain time, i would've said a majority were twats, but there are some nice people out there. I probably am only moaning here because i've had quite bad experiences because of this in the past, and i apologise if i'm offended anyone.

[manic_black_flower]

i certainly don't hate men.

but i hate the attitude a lot of people have to feminism.

here goes my rant...

i did Gender Studies at uni, and loved it. it was such a supportive, open minded environment, where i felt free to say how i felt, and knew that i'd be taken seriously.

now, at work, i mention what i did at uni, and people take the piss "shes a feminist you know" in a really patronising way. one guys reaction was to ask "so you're a lesbian?". firstly, its none of his business anyway, secondly its just stereotypical.

the thing that terrifies me is the hidden nature of a lot of this. at an interview, how do you know if they've already rejected you because you're a girl? (as a disabled person, i can often get guarenteed interviews, but its a waste of time if they have no intention of even considering me)..*starts to feel angry at treatmnet of disabled people too*

but i agree that a lot of womens rejection of feminism is incedibly infuriting. i think it has to do with insecurity, ie they daren't do or say anything that puts them in a position where they might piss off a potential shag partner or something. its the old peer pressure again.

i also really resent the fact that when you have a night out, women are expected to spend god knows how long getting ready, remove any traces of mature womanhood (ie body hair) that men might not like, be stick thin if you want to wear 'trendy' clothes etc etc..and men can just spray a bit of lynx on and chuck on a shirt and trousers.

i really hate this culture of conformity. like everyone has to have blond hair, in the same dumbass style. i have natural blond hair, my hairdresser is always pestering me to get highlights. but why would i want to look like a clone of everyone else? (theres also no way i'm spending £50 a go on my hair, £25 for just cutting it is bad enough.) in this sort of mindset, how are we ever going to accept difference in society, if even hair colour is controlled?

i also hate the fact you're seen as a 'bad sport' if you reject mens advances in clubs. last time it happened, i hit him, and his reaction was like..for gods sake get a life.

don't even get me started on gays in the church....a few days ago i saw this man in town with a smug martyr look on his face with a banner saying soem shit about 'wrong relationships will be punished in the end' or something. arrrgh.

my twatty ex boyfriend changed churches because of a woman priest starting. this to me is dumbfounding.

(this has been my longest ever post so i will shut up now
:)

[Jerry]

Originally posted by relic
*Is very glad she doesn't go to nightclubs.*

relic
And that is precisely the reason why I don't go to nightclubs. Although things can happen at live concerts it happens much more at nightclubs. The word "nightclub" is merely a euphenism for meat market.

When asked at work if I went dancing by my employer and then told I was dour for not doing so I immediately realised what was implyed by this. In that retrograde, patriarchial, backwater company I was working in the attitude was that if you don't have a boyfriend or husband or are not actively looking for in the most obvious place i.e. a nightclub then it is assumed you are a lesbian of the butchy dyke sort. You can't win even if you are spoken for because then they would have more opportunity to control you via your relationship. I was advised by someone outside work to talk to my trade union representative but unfortunately the workplace did not have trade union representation. Speak up against this kind of thing (or answer back on the spot) and you would probably get the sack, receive a bad reference and be refused JSA on the grounds that you were sacked for gross misconduct. This is why I'm afraid to come off benefits.

When it comes to being sexually harrassed all notions of politeness have to be abandonned because otherwise you won't be listened to. You have to momentarily forget what you've been taught as you grew up.

My personal rant is when certain men gets to know a woman they think that they own her and is the go-between her and the rest of the world, trying control her interactions with other people.

Firstly, if I wanted to go into self and social skills improvement there are books, courses, self help groups and teachers/therapists for that sort of thing. But of course we get brainwashed into thinking that "a man will do you good" especially by the older generation and the likes of Bella and Best magazines. I don't need a man to show me how to behave.

Secondly it's better to deal with people directly. If someone is upset with you they shouldn't go via your boyfriend or husband. How the hell does your boyfriend know what that person is thinking anyway? Is he a bloody mind reader? More often than not IME it was my so-called boyfriend who was the instigator of the tittle tattle.

Thirdly, this is a form of social isolation and experts on domestic violence say that perpetrators start with isolating their victim/partners.

Finally, if he needs to criticise you, what's he doing with you in the first place?

I've stopped blaming myself for having this behaviour forced upon me. It can happen to any woman and not just shrinking violets.

[Perdita]

Originally posted by Thomas
well I'm sorry, but Perdita is busy right now cooking my meal. Maybe later she'll eventually come online - depends on if the meal is good.

ROFLMAO
bear in mind I have never used that expression before.

I'm at work but damn! I go away for a quiet walking weekend and i come back and I'm missing the first 'feminist' conversation in bloody weeks!

[Dave]

That'll learn ye

[Lollipop Gestapo]

Well, my boyfriend is the biggest feminist I know. He's always ranting about women's rights etc

We do have an extremely sexist media as well

One of the fuckers who writes for the Daily Mail, wrote a few months ago that women's natural role is to stay at home and let their husbands provide for them. And Melanie Phillips who also writes for that trash compared the Suffragettes to the regime of Stalin.:evil:

[alexliamw]

Originally posted by Lollipop Gestapo
Well, my boyfriend is the biggest feminist I know. He's always ranting about women's rights etc


Someone wants sex......


*Ahem*

Sorry, Im sure hes not like that, but you know the stereotype of "How to please your woman" - pretend to be a feminist!

[littlebabynothing79]

I think people in general try to brand people..primarily cos its the easiest thing to do :( I don't think all men are bad. I understand feminist issues and I have done studies at uni also relating to gender studies/geographies.

Nicky..I havent seen that cartoon.I love those war propaganda cartoons.Maybe if ww1 didn't happen then women wouldnt have been empowered. Women are still seen as the weaker sex. But I know out there in the world..there are physically tougher women..compared to some men.

I just think some men in particular give their sex a bad reputation. I think women just want respect more than anything and courtesy ;) :o I have met some really genuine men, who listen and care..and I've also met the type who's out to get what he can get :(

[theblueroadrunner]

Hiya, I have to agree with everything you sais, especially about 'feminism' being a dirty word. Sick of my boyfriend calling me a feminist like it's an insult, I don' hate men, I just want women to bee seen and treated equally! Rant away everybody!

[Perdita]

Going back to the original complaint, it reminded me of the Street Harassment Project that was started in New York, they're doing stuff in London now but they don't have a UK online presence, more's the pity. At the mo it's just a mututal backslapping message board where you post about the last time you actually reacted to street harassment. It's good just to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't just want to 'live with it', that kind of thing is valuable.

As for harassment in general, I do see it as part of a wider range of techniques that patriarchy uses to remind women of their place within it. Obviously you have to be able to tell the difference between a genuine compliment from a stranger, and proper harassment (the street harassment project is a bit too stringent on that I feel...) but it's easy to tell when someone doesn't want to reinforce sexism.

I also see harassment, especially physical harassment such as what (oh god, name?) experienced, as existing on a continuum of repression that culminates in rape at the other end of the scale. It's the same instinct, a gesture to demonstrate and reinforce male privilege within patriarchy, and part of that is an assumption of judgement and ownership of women's bodies.

The problem with the 'continuum' idea is that it's difficult to legislate on, which is why so few women who experience harssment ever get any kind of legal justice. The good thing about the 'continuum' model is that it much more accurately reflects the real-life experience of all levels of harassment. It does, however, reveal the huge weaknesses of our present laws in protecting women.

I noticed this when a man recently drove by slowly in his ford transit, leaned out of the window and shouted 'show us your tits'. This was clearly as I wasn't wearing a bra, was totally humiliating and made me think twice about not wearing a bra in future. I was so mad, I considered putting a brick through his car window. (not very clever, I know). Obviously, I could be arrested for it, and no-one would punish the man for his harassment. That made me think something really shocking though - that basically, as far as the law is concerned, petty vandalism is a far more serious crime than the harassment of women.

if anyone has bothered to read this far, I'd like to thank you for not dying of boredom. :D

[manic_black_flower]

Perdita, I didn't die of boredom at all!

I know exactly how you feel, just the sheer frustration and powerlessness.

Just a couple of words, and you can be reduced to an object.

:mad:

[maradona]

i dont want to sound patronising but you should try and not feel frustrated or powerless with what the person is saying. if you can find a bit more confidence to not allow yourself to be reduced to just an object it might be helpful- actually its not about confidence much, just basically dont give a fcuk what white van man (or whoever else) says. feel angry yes, but dont get feel depressed about it.

then take his number down and report it to the police for drunk driving or something ;)

of course its easy for me to say this as i dont have to suffer such things as fat ugly guys leaning out their car windows shouting about what a nice arse i have as i walk down the street....well not often :)

[Perdita]

Yeah, I think there's a fine line between getting righteously angry about it, and letting it bother you too much. It's a hard line to walk - Being told not to let it bother me (not that that was your message, I know, maradona) will only make me more annoyed as it implies my annoyance is my own choice and therefore it's my fault. But then again, I do spend an unhealthy period fuming after every time something happens!

[Lover of Outrage]

I'm such a gobshite I'd have probably shouted 'show me your brain and .....' , but that would have meant he would have got to me too. You're damned either way.

[Perdita]

No, I think it's best to react in some gobshitey way or other, or they'll start thinking we simper at the attention. I usually react with the loudest obscenity that comes to mind. As long as it's safe, anyway.

I read somewhere that if someone is actually out to attack a young woman, they are much less likely to do to the woman who, early on, shows an aggressive and reactionary stance to dodgy behaviour. So though I don't want to tell people to do stupid things in dangerous situations, in *some* situations this will actually help.

Funny story. I heard this guy being really sleazy about me, and this was at a railway station at night when I was on my own, and I went up to the guy and asked him whether he thought his talk was making me feel any safer. He came over all New Man (as they often do) and started apologising madly and missing the point by offering to 'protect' me if I felt unsafe.

Turned out he was a boss on a works night out, and I'd just bollocked him in front of all his employees. And several passers-by. Then he decided (because it was a golden opportunity, of course) to chat me up, asking about my studies and asking whether I had ever heard of Baudrillard... what a tosser.

[maradona]

Originally posted by Perdita
Baudrillard... what a tosser.

Couldn't agree more ;)

[Tracey]

I think the word feminism scares some people off because they associate it with man-hater stereotypes. Feminism should be renamed "common sense" - people being treated and respected equally.
I don't understand how people get away with so much discrimination (and positive discrimination) in this day and age. It's baffling and worrying :confused:

[Tim]

I don't see why women should have to tolerate sexist remarks or be told to not let it get them down and to rise above the comments, it's degrading. By putting up with it you're more or less approving of it as an acceptable attitude, I don't like that.