View Full Version : Heroes and Villians
Who would you pick out to be your heroes and villains. I think NME used to run a section like this [I’m sure I’ve seen it in the Manics and Radiohead Originals]. Speaking either from a personal level or a worldwide one.
Heroes > John Frusciante – my idol. I’m so proud that he managed to overthrow his heroine adduction, because in 1994 he was an absolute wreck. The hair was falling out of his head and the teeth were falling out of his mouth. Since then however he has kicked his habit and become one of the World’s best guitarists in my opinion.
> Thom Yorke – For writing some of the best music I’ve heard, and for being generally a good egg.
> Andrew Marr – One of my favourite journalists, very precise and speaks on an understandable level.
>Morrissey - Nuff said!
Villains > The government, for going to war with Iraq without a strong enough case for it as it began. This annoyed me intently.
Hero: Dave Navarro - One Hot Minute was a fucking good album and shits on any other RHCP release. Navarro is God.
Villian: Fruciante - Fucking awful guitarist with his deliberate 'crap' playing and hopeless buzz note solo's.
sorry to take the bait there but i really cant stand Fruciante or the Chili's, but I quite like Navarro..
no need to apologise - your opinion is completly valid niko :)
Hero: The Boss, cause he showed me the way to heaven. I'll never ever forget that.
Villains: Don't really care about this one, but I think Marilyn Manson is a total dickhead. I just don't like the pretentious way he's acting. Watching interviews with him makes me wanna blow big shit. His make-up isn't cool or anti too, it's just moronic. Friedrich was the real shit! :mad:
heroes: the suffragettes, cos even if their politics were weird victoriany feminims, they were on the right lines and I wouldn't be able to vote right now without em.
Marina Abramovic, the most glamorous artist in the world.
Audrey Hepburn, the most glamorous woman in the world.
Lisa Simpson, cos she's adorable.
Nelson, for being cool.
Michael Palin, for that glint in his eye.
.....
villains: Rupert Murdoch, do I really have to explain?
george w bush: ditto?
Camille Paglia, the woman who asks what was that girl doing down a dark alley in a short skirt anyway?
socialist cook
17-07-2003, 17:02
Heroes:
Joe Strummer for writing excellent incredibly meaningful songs, liking different types of music, for being in the Clash, for introducing reggae and hip hop into some people's lives.
George Orwell for writing excellent books, not being swayed about by fashionable trotskyists and stalin apologisers in the 30s and 40s. For having very particular views on the erosion of language, for making me passionate about Spain too.
Simon Hoggart for writing funny columns in the Guardian and for stating clearly why he does not like people
Rosa Parks for organising the Montgomery Bus Boycott in 1955 with the help of her NAACP womens group. An example where women were crucial towards the fight for Civil Rights
Villains:
Endemol- for giving us Big Brother, addictive completely brain dead tv, yet a very very clever concept
Bill Gates for obvious reasons:p
I have no heros, only people i admire, and you dont know most of them.
socialist cook
18-07-2003, 00:02
how about if you share some of them with us? Only if you want to though...
These are just my heroes and villains, I don't pretend that they are necessarily important or influential in the grand scheme of things, but they influenced me for better or for worse.
Heroes
Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, because when I was at school I tried fitting in with the various social cliques, trying the whole macho homophobic sexist trip to get in with people, but it never really felt like me and I was never very good at it anyway. Once I heard Nirvana and listened a bit to what they stood for, I felt like I'd found *my* band and it opened up a whole new lifestyle for me. I realised that acting like an arsehole wasn't something I wanted to try and do anymore. Instead, I opted to act like a miserable git ;) It's all pretty corney, but true.
Good teachers I've had over the years, from Mr. Drake at school who I used to chat to about Biggles ( :cool: ), Mr. Houghton because he was a great laugh sometimes but if you didn't do your work was a real bastard and so made naturally lazy shites like me get our arses in gear, and one of my university lecturers Rudolf Muhs, simply because he was a lovely bloke and incredibly knowledgable. A lot of teachers I've had over the years have disliked me because I like to debate and argue a lot, for me that's what makes learning fun rather than just sitting down learning facts parrot fashion. Rudolf always encouraged me to dissent and appreciated my contributions, so I thank him for that.
Villains
Carrying on from the Nirvana stuff I mentioned above, I had a group of 'friends' at school. Looking back now I can see that they weren't really my friends at all, rather just people I felt I had to ingratiate myself with to become popular. Anyway, one day one of these people decided he wanted to have a fight with me out of the blue, because I was 'getting too cocky'. We did fight, neither of us got hurt but it just infuriated me so much that he would want to fight for such a pathetic reason. I very rarely get angry, being so laid back I'm almost horizontal, but after that I was fuming. I had a load of his cd's and games at home so I smashed them up when I got back. Beware the Pimpfian fury ;)
suicidebride
18-07-2003, 10:23
Heroes (of course the Manics, for being the greatest band I have ever known):
-People who can write eloquently and affectingly. ie: Dylan Thomas, George Orwell, Herman Hesse, Sylvia Plath, Philip Larkin, Richey (no I am not COR), Shakespeare, Keats.. The list continues, boringly, for quite a while in its entirety so I'll spare you.
-My history teacher, for continually inspiring me and being one of the few people I know of possessing any kind of love of learning.
-Morrissey & Marr, for making my life that little bit more bearable and meaningful, and seemingly having heavenly gifts for songwriting...
-Which brings me to Jeff Buckley, who created stunning music which is intensely personal to everyone who hears it. Listening to one of his songs is like being taken through a tour of your own soul. That sounds very pretentious but I think it's true all the same.
-Karl Marx! For being incendiary and inspirational! And stirring passion in people who had nothing. Passion is the greatest human feeling and anyone who inspires it is to be commended (even if it is for a dodgy cause). Marx empowered people who had been totally downtrodden and proved that one does not have to be privileged or respected to have an intelligent worldview and stand up for what one believes in.
Villains:
-The press who give idiots like Tara Palmer-Tomkinson and ex-Big Brother contestants publicity. It's just pathetic and cruel on both sides.
-Media critics who mindlessly toe the editorial line *coughNMEcough*.. (though I still buy it every week)
-I don't think George Bush is a 'villain' - more a completely braindead ape who got into power because of the American public's preference of personality over politics. Sooner or later they will realise that while one may seem to be "a regular guy", this really does not guarantee that he will be anywhere near a half-decent president. So I suppose the real 'villain' concerning his presidency is the entirety of the American political system. Which is quite concerning seeing how the UK system seems to be heading in the same direction, only ours is dangerous in a different respect in that there is no sensible opposition to Labour at all.
Apologies, I rant.
Originally posted by suicidebride
-Karl Marx! For being incendiary and inspirational! And stirring passion in people who had nothing. Passion is the greatest human feeling and anyone who inspires it is to be commended (even if it is for a dodgy cause). Marx empowered people who had been totally downtrodden and proved that one does not have to be privileged or respected to have an intelligent worldview and stand up for what one believes in.
I don't wish to be a pedant, but do you think it's really true that Marx empowered the poor and the underprivileged? I know that's what a lot of Marxists would *like* to think, but in reality it seems to me that the people who are inspired by Marx the most often come very privileged and wealthy backgrounds - for instance, Lenin, Trotsky and virtually the whole of the Soviet leadership bar Stalin; Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, and of course Marx himself - they all came from well respected upper middle class families. In the 1930`s, at the height of the depression when dissatisfaction with capitalism was at it's peak, when millions were out of work, and poverty reigned while the Soviet Union seemed to be going from strength to strength, generally in Britain at least communism was most popular amongst middle class intellectuals. The working class in Britain and in many countries in the western world often tend to be more conservative and traditional than the classes which supposedly exploit them. Historically, in Europe at least, Marxism (in its most extreme form rather than the social democratic variety) has failed to find the mass support it needs to bring it to power. Even in Weimar Germany, which had the biggest communist party outside of Russia, not enough people supported them to bring them to power.
I'm not saying that Marxism is bad, or that it has even failed, I just think it's untrue to say that it has inspired and empowered working class people. One could even argue that it has disempowered working class people, as workers in communist countries invariably end up with even less rights than they do in capitalist countries. In Russia for instance they lost the right to strike or to form trade unions. Of course you could argue that the form of communism that came to power in those countries wasn't what Marx intended, but then Marx was very adept at dissecting capitalism but was terribly vague about what should come after and how it should work.
Terminal Young Thing
18-07-2003, 15:31
Heroes
-Nicky Wire
-Orwell
-Andrew Marr
-My Dad (aww)
-Bevan
Villians
-GWB
-Blair
-The EU
and many many more.
Originally posted by Terminal Young Thing
Andrew Marr
Yay! :D :D :D
Marr for P.M.!
Terminal Young Thing
18-07-2003, 16:19
He knows too much about Politics for him to be PM:(
littlebabynothing79
18-07-2003, 17:28
Heros: Nicky Wire, George Orwell, Seamus Heaney
Villans: Puntin, Bush and various historical political leaders that have escaped my mind at the moment..
suicidebride
18-07-2003, 20:18
Originally posted by Pimpf
I don't wish to be a pedant, but do you think it's really true that Marx empowered the poor and the underprivileged? I know that's what a lot of Marxists would *like* to think, but in reality it seems to me that the people who are inspired by Marx the most often come very privileged and wealthy backgrounds - for instance, Lenin, Trotsky and virtually the whole of the Soviet leadership bar Stalin; Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, and of course Marx himself - they all came from well respected upper middle class families. In the 1930`s, at the height of the depression when dissatisfaction with capitalism was at it's peak, when millions were out of work, and poverty reigned while the Soviet Union seemed to be going from strength to strength, generally in Britain at least communism was most popular amongst middle class intellectuals. The working class in Britain and in many countries in the western world often tend to be more conservative and traditional than the classes which supposedly exploit them. Historically, in Europe at least, Marxism (in its most extreme form rather than the social democratic variety) has failed to find the mass support it needs to bring it to power. Even in Weimar Germany, which had the biggest communist party outside of Russia, not enough people supported them to bring them to power.
I'm not saying that Marxism is bad, or that it has even failed, I just think it's untrue to say that it has inspired and empowered working class people. One could even argue that it has disempowered working class people, as workers in communist countries invariably end up with even less rights than they do in capitalist countries. In Russia for instance they lost the right to strike or to form trade unions. Of course you could argue that the form of communism that came to power in those countries wasn't what Marx intended, but then Marx was very adept at dissecting capitalism but was terribly vague about what should come after and how it should work.
All true, though the point I was trying to make was the intent behind Marx's actions - the idealism-peddling, to the cynical (myself included) - was beautiful. It gave people hope, and although not totally accepted (which isn't really the point) it does indeed inspire and intend to empower the working class.
Valid points, though. In actuality it hasn't worked, and has been grossly abused (cf George Orwell's allegorical writings etc).
I dont know how to put this forward without sounding over analytical (sp?), but the idea of 'heros' being someone you dont know i find a bit dodgy, i man how the fuck do you know these people are like they are, and the idea of Tony Blair being a 'villain' is a bit harsh, i prefer him to some twats that walk the street, or the knobhead who is a serial granny mugger. Put it this way (taking back what i said before) id say a doctor who saved the life of a close relative is what i would call a hero, while i admire people like Joe Strummer from what information ive been given about him, which is im sure what you meant, but im so pedantic sorry:o
Originally posted by suicidebride
All true, though the point I was trying to make was the intent behind Marx's actions - the idealism-peddling, to the cynical (myself included) - was beautiful. It gave people hope, and although not totally accepted (which isn't really the point) it does indeed inspire and intend to empower the working class.
Valid points, though. In actuality it hasn't worked, and has been grossly abused (cf George Orwell's allegorical writings etc).
I understand the point you were trying to make and a few years ago I would have said the same thing. I used to really believe that Marx offered a workable political system, and I too used to think that the negative aspects of the USSR/Cuba/China etc were the result of a misinterpretation of his works, but since studying Marx in greater detail I think a lot of those problems that arose in those countries were largely his fault. He failed to explain adequately how the post-capitalist society he advocated should function, and instead just spouted a lot of vague stuff about the 'dictatorship of the proleteriat' and how that would act as the transitory stage to communism. People say Lenin/Stalin et al misunderstood Marx, but they didn't really have any other choice other than to put their own versions of communism into practice, which invariably ended up to be worse than capitalism, because Marx didn't explain how his proposed society should work.
I don't want to sound all preachy on this because I speak as someone who would have considered Marx a 'hero' of mine a few years ago, but ultimately idealism isn't worth anything if you can't put forward a workable political system. Other political philosophers had much more practical ideas yet get talked about a lot less than Marx. Robert Owen for example managed to actually get a commune working that became famous for it's efficiency and productivity, while all Marx did was write books, smoke cigars and spend Engels money ;)
I hope you don't think I'm trying to argue with you, I just love history and love to talk about it. Now that I've finished university I'm trying to keep my hand in...
Hi all hope your well
okey dokeys heres mine with reasons
First and most importantly of all
1 My mother - Simple for for loving and caring about me when i was on the brink of going mad 5 years ago for for being there helping me through my bullying and believing in me when i had stopped believing that anyone had cared and right now shes doing all she can to help me through the rough patch i am having right now not only that shes been more of a friend to me other then zoe (littlebabynothing79 your brilliant to hun) more of a friend to me then so called assholes that befriend me only to kick me in the guts when they run of use thanks for being there for me.
2.The Manics- Of course the manics for helping me believe in myself again for given me one of the best nights of my life at wembley arena dec 7th 2002 and for helping me feel confident to speak out about life and not to be frightend about voicing my opinions But most of all for just being the most greatest band in the world.
Villians
OOOOOOOOOH where do i start
1 The goverment- Dont even get me started on them.
2 Murderers,sick child abusing scumbags, that prey on children
3 A personal one Liars ppl who cheat then come out with pathetic reasons as to why they done it personal for me cos it happen to me after i loved and cared about her and did all i can for the relationship to be happy
4 Friends that are only out to get what they can from you then drop you like a bad habit or find some reason to lose contact with you.
or a so called friend thats so far up his or hers own ass they think they should have there own postcode
Most important of all when a so called friend toys with your emotions those that build your hopes up just to crush you feelings also when they accuse you of being jealous of them just cos they get involved with someone that to me is just evil even after you stand by and support them and they fuck off cos they get fed up with you.
Take care all sorry if anyone is offended but sorry its my opinion and im entitled to it just like all of you
Jason
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
suicidebride
20-07-2003, 19:52
Originally posted by Pimpf
I understand the point you were trying to make and a few years ago I would have said the same thing. I used to really believe that Marx offered a workable political system, and I too used to think that the negative aspects of the USSR/Cuba/China etc were the result of a misinterpretation of his works, but since studying Marx in greater detail I think a lot of those problems that arose in those countries were largely his fault. He failed to explain adequately how the post-capitalist society he advocated should function, and instead just spouted a lot of vague stuff about the 'dictatorship of the proleteriat' and how that would act as the transitory stage to communism. People say Lenin/Stalin et al misunderstood Marx, but they didn't really have any other choice other than to put their own versions of communism into practice, which invariably ended up to be worse than capitalism, because Marx didn't explain how his proposed society should work.
I don't want to sound all preachy on this because I speak as someone who would have considered Marx a 'hero' of mine a few years ago, but ultimately idealism isn't worth anything if you can't put forward a workable political system. Other political philosophers had much more practical ideas yet get talked about a lot less than Marx. Robert Owen for example managed to actually get a commune working that became famous for it's efficiency and productivity, while all Marx did was write books, smoke cigars and spend Engels money ;)
I hope you don't think I'm trying to argue with you, I just love history and love to talk about it. Now that I've finished university I'm trying to keep my hand in...
No, no, it's all healthy discussion.. I'm still in the midst of learning about Marx's work (since I am a great admirer at the moment) and perhaps I should wait until I have fully understood the ins and outs of his philosophy before passing this kind of judgement. I always seem to jump in at the deep end with these things - most of the time I flounder for a while before beginning to swim adequately.
Dancing May Girl
20-07-2003, 19:59
Hero:
The Manics, I guess.
Dante
Thit Jensen (danish female writer)
Janis Joplin
George Orwell
Soeren Kierkegaard
J.R.R. Tolkien
C.S. Lewis
Villians:
GWB
Hilary Clinton
Britney Spears
Government
Tony Blair
Lollipop Gestapo
20-07-2003, 23:45
The Bronte sisters- for inspiring my love of great literature
Anne Frank- for being an inspiration when I was in my teens
George Orwell- for being a great novelist and for his admirable principles
William Wilberforece- for campaigning for the abolition of slavery
Harper Lee- for giving us To Kill a Mockingbird and Atticus Finch
Martin Luther King- for fighting for civil rights without resorting to violence
Manics- for giving me the confidence to be different
Tori Amos- for inspiration
My boyfriend- for being the most articulate, intelligent and compassionate person I know.
VILLAINS/VILLAINESSESS
Margaret Thatcher- for being a bitch
David Mellor- for being a slimeball
John Redwood- for being a repulsive, narrow-minded bigot
Peter Hitchens- for being a racist, sexist, homophobic bigot
Simon Heffer- as above
Andrew Roberts- as above
Jim Davidson- as above
Bernard Manning - as above
Michael Winner- as above
- The entire US administration
Manicben
21-07-2003, 01:17
Heros:
Manics:for being an inteligent band with something to say and the ability to write the best songs
The working class:anyone who gos to work for a shitty wage and gets by anyone who works in a shop and gos everyday i have respect for!
Stan Lee:What a cool guy responsible for all my fave comic books
Jack Nicholson:Best actor ever
My mum and Dad:best people ever
Monty Python crew:Comedy Genius
Eddie Izzard:cross dressing comedy genius with so many good points
Villans:
Fred Durst:what the hell is it?????
George Bush:what a fucking brainless idiot
Mark Chapman:Killed John Lennon.................and was supposidly a huge fan!
Music movie art any critics:Why have someone tell you what to think about something!
Telesales people:should be made illegal to phone people at home to sell things
Elvis:Fat over-rated dick head!
Originally posted by Lollipop Gestapo
Simon Heffer- as above
Gargh, I hate that man! It's not so much his words that annoy me, because usually it's just reactionary drivel and I can ignore that, it's his pompous little portrait and his stupid little motto at the top of the page in the Daily Mail that does me in.
michelle
21-07-2003, 06:04
my heros:
My hubby for putting up with me all these years:o and making me believe that my life is worth something.
Sartre, for putting into words all the shit i feel but have no idea why i feel it.
Plath, for knowing what it's like to be fucked but have no idea why.
Finn, for always being there for me, ditto for mel, jeanette and sam
Villians:
the bastard that ruined my life
After him every other villian is just a pale imitation:(
Originally posted by Pimpf
Marx was very adept at dissecting capitalism but was terribly vague about what should come after and how it should work.
Absolutely. I agree with practically everything you've said in this thread pimpf, and I don't believe 'Marxism' can be relied upon alone as a workable system.
But... I just want to make one point. Isn't it understandable that his critique of capitalism is enough just in itself to make him a 'hero' in some people's eyes? Considering the Communist Manifesto first appeared in 1848, it's impressive that his critique of capitalism is still highly relevant. It describes today's neo-liberalism/modern capitalism extremely well, maybe better than anything else I've read, even though it was published 155 years ago! That dissection of capitalism alone is enough to make me impressed, regardless of whether I agree with his idea of 'proletarian dictatorship' or not.
Like you, my views have changed over the last couple of years, and back then I would've agreed with the view that Marx had been misinterpreted. Now I realise the Manifesto isn't enough to go on alone for making the system work, but it's a good starting point for seeing what's wrong. And I do still believe there can be a workable political system that simply involves basic socialist principles, without Marx's dictatorship, but is perhaps inspired by his critique of capitalism.
Heroes :
Me.
Villans:
Jeffery Archer - what a nonce
George W. Bush - stupidity personified.
Commies - filthy buggers, the lot of them
Zane Lowe - he's annoying, cool as a cucumber on the surface of the sun
Ray from Big Brother - baldy twat
And now here's my attempt at heroes/villains:
Heroes
Karl Marx - for his critique of capitalism which remains highly relevant even today, 155 years after it was written. ;)
Bill Hicks - for being the most amazing comedian I've ever heard, for daring to say whatever the hell he wanted, and for those things he said being quite frankly brilliant. Political comedy rules when it's done the Hicks way.
Albert Camus - For writing The Outsider, not to mention the others.
Villains:
Margaret Thatcher - for single-handedly demoralising half the country, and leaving behind her individualist schizophrenic yuppy scum culture.
All those who actively advance bigotry.
Bill Giles (BBC weathertwat) - for saying it would snow on Christmas eve in 1992 when it didn't. Up there with Hitler.
Originally posted by Paddy
But... I just want to make one point. Isn't it understandable that his critique of capitalism is enough just in itself to make him a 'hero' in some people's eyes? Considering the Communist Manifesto first appeared in 1848, it's impressive that his critique of capitalism is still highly relevant. It describes today's neo-liberalism/modern capitalism extremely well, maybe better than anything else I've read, even though it was published 155 years ago! That dissection of capitalism alone is enough to make me impressed, regardless of whether I agree with his idea of 'proletarian dictatorship' or not.
Like you, my views have changed over the last couple of years, and back then I would've agreed with the view that Marx had been misinterpreted. Now I realise the Manifesto isn't enough to go on alone for making the system work, but it's a good starting point for seeing what's wrong. And I do still believe there can be a workable political system that simply involves basic socialist principles, without Marx's dictatorship, but is perhaps inspired by his critique of capitalism.
Btw, I wasn't really talking about the Communist manifesto when I was criticising Marx, because that was never meant to lay out a workable political system. It's just a basic piece of propaganda that is more for the heart than the head IMO.
I never said that Marx was worthless, I still think he was a great man and a brilliant political thinker. You could say that most welfare states in the world have been inspired by Marx, so in that respect he really helped to acheive something worthwhile. I just think that we shouldn't be under any illusions about how successful Marx has been in empowering the working classes, or how successful his vision of communism has been. I seem to remember Marx criticising social democracy as too much of a 'half-way house', and as watered-down social democracy has obviously triumphed over communism as a workable political ideology he has failed in that respect. I still admire Marx, I just think a lot of the time people look at him through rose-tinted glasses.
It's just a shame that he never really got round to explaining how Communism should work, and left it to people like Lenin and Stalin to take it upon themselves to work that out. Maybe that's just because communism is impossible though.
heroes: the Manics-obviously! I know it sounds corny nut i don't care i would have missed out on so much if it wasn't for them
Deborah Harry- for being cool as fuck and proving that you can do anythiing you wat if you put your mind to it and oyu don't nee a man to be successful and feel good about yourself.
George Orwell- for writing what everyone else was too afraid to write!
Bob Dylan-for expressing the inexpressable
Villains
Tony Blair- for being a lying, spineless piece of shiit and for abusing the electorate not to mention the people of Iraq
George Bush- see above. Total, utter, blatant ignorance and hypocrisy
Radio 1- for allowing so much shite "music" to pollute our ears on a daily basis
People who abuse animals
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