View Full Version : How can you believe in God?
mr_muse_man
12-07-2003, 21:21
Obviously opinions on this are welcome from everyone but id be interested in particular on the views of people who do believe in God.
I find myself in an ideal world wanting to believe in a God as this I think would make you much a happier person overall. In practise though I just find it impossible. Sort of as I cant see it I cant believe it. Its not I dont believe but at the same time I'm certainly not a believer either. If I had to say I would say there is no God in the biblical sense.
This is why I would like to know HOW you can believe in it all. I just wouldnt be able to follow a religion without evidence.
I dont wanna cause any negativity with this as I respect anyones opinions on religion most of the time cos its a pretty personal thing. I hope also this actually makes sense for a discussion!
Originally posted by mr_muse_man
I just wouldnt be able to follow a religion without evidence.
Religion is based on 'faith'. If it could be proved it wouldn't be a religion, it would be fact.
I don't believe in God in a biblical sense...I can't. But...saying that, I do believe there is something out there, nothing physical, but something we can't understand.
Very vague :)
I'm not a believer in God either, but I don't think you can say unreservedly that God doesn't exist because of a lack of evidence. There's an awful lot that we still can't explain within the realms of current science, so therefore the assertion that God created the universe, or that there is an afterlife, can't really be proved or disproved, so basically it's anyones guess.
nephthys
12-07-2003, 21:43
some people feel the need to believe that there is some higher power in order to feel secure, that they are being looked after. It gives them something to believe in, to live their lives by.
Its just bows down to faith, a gut feeling...
I personally don't think theres anything wrong with that, even though i don't believe in god i dont feel that just because i believe something to be false that everyone else should too...
what i do dislike however, is those irritating people who feel the need to force their religion on you... to try and make you believe.
Now thats annoying...
Originally posted by nephthys
what i do dislike however, is those irritating people who feel the need to force their religion on you... to try and make you believe.
Now thats annoying...
That's true, but I think anyone who forces their opinions on other people is a twat, whether they are trying to convince you that God exists or not, that socialism is the only hope for mankind, or that your favourite band is actually shit.
Originally posted by Pimpf
That's true, but I think anyone who forces their opinions on other people is a twat, whether they are trying to convince you that God exists or not, that socialism is the only hope for mankind, or that your favourite band is actually shit.
Quite right. But as long as the people ranting make it clear that it's only their opinion, then they can say what they want.
I get annoyed when people catagorically try and pass off their opinion as fact, If im ranting I always try and throw in a couple of 'IMO's and the like.
:D
nephthys
12-07-2003, 22:26
Originally posted by Void
I get annoyed when people catagorically try and pass off their opinion as fact, If im ranting I always try and throw in a couple of 'IMO's and the like.
:D
smoooooth :D
JamesyEsquire
12-07-2003, 22:50
a good read...
http://www.fns.org.uk/ac.htm
Originally posted by Void
Religion is based on 'faith'. If it could be proved it wouldn't be a religion, it would be fact.
just what I was going to say! In a sense, asking for 'proof' in religion is like asking for meat in your tofu.
will someone please come up with a better analogy?
(personal rant) as for the people who want to convert you, I'm convinced this is not only fine, but also that in their worldview it's the most loving thing they can possibly do. Ie they're taking time out to save my soul. This, to me, is very cool. How hard is it just to politely say thank you and take the leaflets and stuff to read on your next bustrip? If you haven't got the time, you can just say so, but I've never seen the point in actually getting annoyed for more than 30 seconds over it.
/personal rant
anyway mr muse man, get thee to the 'quiz for the spiritually confused' thread over in EE. Because I started it, donchaknow.:D
I'm actually not particularly religious at all, in fact I'm rather suspicious of much religion. *reads post again*. You wouldn't think it, reading this though. hmm.
I'm supposdly catholic, but i don't really go to church although i guess i do belive in a god in someway. I keep thinking about the lack of evidence, but i guess it's not about that at all. You either belive or you don't, if you don't you don't. Faith isn't about evidence at all.
Besides i was thinking, if the idea is to test our beliefs then surely the best way to do it would be to make it look like no god existed, and then those that really believed would have passed. (sorry if that sounded really religious, it's just a thought i had when i was thinking about this yesterday).
I really can't stand people that force their religion on others either, i think it should be an intensely personal decision and activity, which is why in a lot of ways i'm not too keen on organised worshipping.
Originally posted by nephthys
smoooooth :D
Arn't I just?
http://www.faceparty.com/public/179/images/hundredreasons_1117581.jpg
Wasn't there some kind of study that found that theres a part of your brain which becomes more active if you have some kind of real active faith in a religion or something it released chemicals that made you feel good?
Sleepflower
13-07-2003, 08:48
Some one above said it was about faith and it really is. I have a very strong faith and really do believe in God. I hate forcing religion on anyone though as it puts people off more than the other way round.
But anyway it really is just a matter of faith. Dunno, I lost my faith last year when I went through a really rough time but then found it again on Jauary 26th and a church service I attended. I just felt the warmth of God for the first proper time and I suddenly realised with out him I would not be able to get by in life. Then I became deliriouly happy with God in my life so would never let go of him. I know a few people who have this exact same view as well.
It's a difficult thing to believe in, and I think everyone who beleives questions sometimes but it's a relationship I wouldn't be without now as I know God guides me through thick and thin.
Well thats just my view and I hope people respect it, don't want to sound like I'm forcing it as I really don't want to be portrayed in that way. has just helped me out a lot. Spexcially when my gran died in March. I still have days now where I miss her but I know she is with God and in no more pain. It helps to know that too.
i'm undecided about whether i believe in a god or not. If there is one though, i certainly don't think it should be praised. sure, it'd be nice to be able to believe in god and have all the unresolved things in your life put down to that faith, but personally i find that a ridiculous and strange thing to do. undoubtedly those who can, allow themselves to feel unconcerned about a lot of things and can concentrate on their own happiness (this is just my opinion, i'm sure not all people are like this, but i have a lot of friends who are very strict christians and this is what i see in them). to me a god can just as easily be found in a person-any one way relationship is like that with a god, if you love this person and idolise them. only, it's much easier to praise a person as you have the certainty of their existence. my best friend is a vicars daughter and a christain herself and the things their ereligion makes them say are unbeliveable. they mock all other religions and find them completely implausible. if a belief in god can make you think like this i'd rather leave it IMO!
rach
I don't believe in god. But I don't really believe in anything that states good or bad. You know, I'm living by my guts really. You'll never find me thinking about it, it's just a good feeling or bad, hence I react. Hmm.. too hard to explain. Ciao!
alexliamw
13-07-2003, 14:31
I'm Christian, but in quite a loose, liberal way. I go to church regularly though.
I think as others have said its down to a matter of faith. You can't really always make a choice about whether you believe or not - its just whether you're able to or not. I believe in God because there must be a higher power above all this crazy world, and I follow Christianity specifically because its what suits me best and I enjoy the worship at my church. However, I don't believe everything in the Bible is true, nor that Christianity is flawless, and I see there being other paths to God.
I wouldn't try and convert people of other religions personally. I'm more into random acts of kindness, thats the real evangelism that actually does some good. Just to put a smile on someone's face. Chat with the elderly, or people that seem slightly crazy. If you treat them like real people they usually have something to say and it brings them pleasure that you stopped to talk to them. That way, you're spreading love and spirituality much better than screaming at people how to live their lives. Just doing kind things makes you and the person randomly happy, like if you go over a toll bridge, tell the person at the gate that you're paying for the car behind as well. Buy sandwiches for homeless people. That kind of thing is great.
Sleepflower
13-07-2003, 15:44
I really agree with that! I think as long as you do good in your life, you will be recieved into Gods kingdom, but then I suppose you do have to believe in that yourself as well. Not sure on that one really.
I do believe in doing good acts though. As God would want us to do that
littlebabynothing79
13-07-2003, 16:56
I dont really believe in the New Testament or the Old one :rolleyes: It just seems too fictional to be true. I believe that there was once a man called God/Jesus/Christ..I partly believe there is a heaven.
I wouldnt consider myself as a Christian..cos I go to church whenever its possible basically..4x at year..
I think in some ways society has changed our perspectives on reigion..but our faith (individually) havent totally gone..cos acts of human kindness still exist..and arguably they come from faith in humanity ??
I once vandalised a church :o :o
Sleepflower
13-07-2003, 17:25
Originally posted by littlebabynothing79
I
I wouldnt consider myself as a Christian..cos I go to church whenever its possible basically..4x at year..
Doesn't matter when you go to church, it's how you act
Terminal Young Thing
13-07-2003, 17:25
I believe in God and Jesus, but I tend to discard the rest of the baggage.
I do go to Church though.
I don't go around forcing my faith on people, but if there is an instance where I don't want to do something because it goes against what I believe, I will take the opportunity to explain why.
Screaming Icon
13-07-2003, 17:38
Originally posted by Maddock
I once vandalised a church :o :o
That's so stupid.. :mad:
Like my mate burnt a bible once because she thinks she was acting cool..
That's just acting like a total twat quite frankly.
littlebabynothing79
13-07-2003, 17:43
I dont think you can prove anything by burning a bible or vandalising a church..
In some countries you'd be banged up for that
but i was drunk :( and it was fun :D
( i wasn't trying to make any sort of statement.. although if i was in charge churches would be no more ;) )
Screaming Icon
13-07-2003, 18:01
Originally posted by littlebabynothing79
In some countries you'd be banged up for that
Good!!! lol ;)
I'm sure she didn't mean banged in the way you're imagining...
Screaming Icon
13-07-2003, 18:24
Originally posted by Maddock
I'm sure she didn't mean banged in the way you're imagining...
:rolleyes: ha
ha
haha.
No, really. :rolleyes:
Sleepflower
15-07-2003, 16:00
Originally posted by Terminal Young Thing
I believe in God and Jesus, but I tend to discard the rest of the baggage.
I do go to Church though.
I don't go around forcing my faith on people, but if there is an instance where I don't want to do something because it goes against what I believe, I will take the opportunity to explain why.
I think that's a good way of looking at things. People annoy me when they turn round to me and say are you a Bible basher? Er just cos I'm a christian and go to a Catholic school it certainly doesn't mean I'm a bible basher! But when people turn round and I ask I just say 'yeah and I'm prud of it too.' soon shurts them up
:D
I think there has to be some sort of God or higher being or something, i really admire people with strong faith and that, because Mr God is power crazed at times.
socialist cook
16-07-2003, 13:09
Originally posted by Sleepflower
People annoy me when they turn round to me and say are you a Bible basher? Er just cos I'm a christian and go to a Catholic school it certainly doesn't mean I'm a bible basher! But when people turn round and I ask I just say 'yeah and I'm prud of it too.' soon shurts them up
:D
Before I moved schools I was at a Catholic school too and what you described was annoying to those people who did go to church- even within the small confines of the school those who went to church regularly were ostracised. Excellent response btw: I'm not sure whether I would have had the guts to say it though:o :(
nicky wire
16-07-2003, 22:43
The problem withe being a liberal religious (christian; this could apply to ther religions, but im really not sure) person, and not forcing your beliefs on other people, is that by doing that you are disobeying commands given to you in your holy book. The bible states that you should spread the word and all that shit, and by not doing that you are in effect disobeying your god (as long as you hold with the orthodox christian view that the bible is the word of god). And what kind of faith do you call it when you only act on the parts of the bible that suit your own personal beliefs. That's not faith at all; therefore you can't call yourself religious, unless you add some kind of get out clause like "non-committal" or "hipocritical" afterwards.
Originally posted by nicky wire
The problem withe being a liberal religious (christian; this could apply to ther religions, but im really not sure) person, and not forcing your beliefs on other people, is that by doing that you are disobeying commands given to you in your holy book. The bible states that you should spread the word and all that shit, and by not doing that you are in effect disobeying your god (as long as you hold with the orthodox christian view that the bible is the word of god). And what kind of faith do you call it when you only act on the parts of the bible that suit your own personal beliefs. That's not faith at all; therefore you can't call yourself religious, unless you add some kind of get out clause like "non-committal" or "hipocritical" afterwards.
I believe that it's possible to follow basic Christian values without adhering dogmatically to everything the Bible says. Although I'm no Bible expert and may be wrong, I'm sure that the Bible, like any other widely quoted and followed text of a similar ilk from 'Capital' to the Koran, is open to interpretation. You can probably make any claim about how people should behave and find something in there to back it up with. Therefore IMO there is no right or wrong way to worship, what's important is to take the core message of the text and adapt it for the needs of the present time.
littlebabynothing79
18-07-2003, 17:36
I think the Holy Bible itself..is just a book of morals and it depends upon you as a person as you take on board all this information. Of course I dont believe water can be turned into wine. I can't quote stuff from the bible apart from obvious stuff like Adam and Eve etc etc.
But I think religion itself is a personal and complex thing. People shouldn't tarnish the idea of Christianity and the people that follow this church. Like with all the other religions. I find the hardest religion to fully understand is Jeohvah Witnesses (sp?) I get completely confused about who is God, Jesus and Christ when they start talking.
'I talk to god but the sky is empty' Plath
I do talk to god sometimes in my mind. But I'm not 100% sure he exists, I mean who does? I'm not a heathen though :)
I don't believe in a God that can send people to eternity in Hell just for snubbing him. Insitutionalised religion has nothing to do with the radical teachings of Jesus Christ and has more to do with Paulian beliefs and in the worst cases there is an emphasis on the Old Testament (because it contains more pages than the NT) which I find is a life destroying mentality.
Forcing people, even those on a low income, to tithe 10% of what they earn is immoral especially as most of that money is spent on church buildings and people could be using that money to help the homeless and anyone they know who's in need.
Then there's the inequality that exists in churches. Working class people are not welcome in the majority of CofE churches and even less so than in the Church in Wales where it's all fur coats and flash cars. This means that poorer or less well educated people are shunted off to strict chapels, pentecostal churches and the cult like evangelical off-shoots of the main denominations. These places of worship are heavily influenced by American style fundamentalist Christianity which is not representative of churches in general in the US but of the Deep South only.
I have had a very bad experience of churches (I attended on and off) where I live in the last ten years. I was told not to have friends or interests outside the church. Everthing was ssen to be of the devil. I walked away two years ago and this led to relief from depression and insomnia. My normal creativity returned within a few weeks.
Sleepflower
21-07-2003, 14:11
Originally posted by littlebabynothing79
I think the Holy Bible itself..is just a book of morals and it depends upon you as a person as you take on board all this information. Of course I dont believe water can be turned into wine. I can't quote stuff from the bible apart from obvious stuff like Adam and Eve etc etc.
If we all took every single word in the Bible to account then quite frankly the world would be a very boring place! (and that's coming from a complete Jesus freak!) Seriously though. I forget where this is written now, but it's somewhere in the old testement. There is a set of rules (not the 10 commandments) and there are things such as Don't wear clothes made out of two different materials and don't get any tatoos or body peircings as it's kind of Gods body as well and it's a special creation.
But today only a monority of people obey these rules. Christians don't as they know that when Jesus came he forgave all our sins and new rules were made. Though I still find it good to obey as many of the 10 commandments as possible
Sleepflower
21-07-2003, 14:18
Jerry - What religion are you - if you're christian what denomination are you?
I'm CofE and have never had a problem with the idea of working class. Pretty much all the people in our church are working class
Sorry if I've totally misinterpretted what you've said there :o
how can you call yourself a christian if you don't obey the ten commandments?
I've always wondered why a religion still exists, if everyone changes it to suit themselves (not you in particular, i'm on about in general). Seems pretty pointless to me.
Sleepflower
21-07-2003, 14:28
When I said I tried to obey as many commandments as possible the one I find very difficult to obey is 'Thou shalt not take the lords name in vein' it's a hard one because so many people do, I also swear, and find it difficult not to.
Screaming Icon
21-07-2003, 15:06
And, if anyone cares, I'm getting into Shinto thanks to my friend Mai.. I agree with alot of it but she has explained to me that not many people outside of Japan believe in it and just go for Buddhism which Shinto is often compared to and also shares a close relationship with.
Find out more about Shinto here (http://www.ox.compsoc.net/~gemini/simons/historyweb/shinto.html) :)
The most common method of purification was by ablution (misogi), ranging from the customary rinsing of mouth and hands before worship to standing naked under a waterfall.
heh count me in ;)
Screaming Icon
21-07-2003, 15:11
Trust you.. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Sleepflower
Jerry - What religion are you - if you're christian what denomination are you?
I'm CofE and have never had a problem with the idea of working class. Pretty much all the people in our church are working class
Sorry if I've totally misinterpretted what you've said there :o
Low Anglican churches and CofE churches in innercity areas and rural areas with might not be snooty but in the middle class suburbs there is definitely some prejudice. There is a fairly evangelical Church in Wales church near where I live which assumes that every young person between the ages of 18 and 22 is a university student. As for Llandaff Cathedral if you don't have a profession forget about going there.
Where I live in Cardiff most churches are Calvinist based but they won't advertise it as such and very few Calvinists will admit to it. There is so much egotism and one-up-manship breakaway churches are forming all the time. Until I came to Wales I did not come across such misery in church. At least in England I felt part of a community and people would invite me home for a cup of tea. This rarely happens in Cardiff. I would only be invited to somebody's home en masse if a special lunch or bible study was being held. The only people I made friends with in churches were others on the edge of the church community who had suffered prejudice in the same way as I had. The rest were too busy judging and being hypocritical. In fact I didn't meet many hypocrites living in England.
pretty in pink
22-07-2003, 12:47
Originally posted by nicky wire And what kind of faith do you call it when you only act on the parts of the bible that suit your own personal beliefs. That's not faith at all; therefore you can't call yourself religious, unless you add some kind of get out clause like "non-committal" or "hipocritical" afterwards.
Originally posted by Maddock
how can you call yourself a christian if you don't obey the ten commandments?
I've always wondered why a religion still exists, if everyone changes it to suit themselves (not you in particular, i'm on about in general). Seems pretty pointless to me.
I donīt understand why being religious should mean that you canīt use your own common sense. Iīm not religious at all, but Iīm interested in religions and I have tried to learn to tolerate them more, because I used to think very negatively about all religions.
In my opinion religion only makes sense if it allows interpration and isnīt just about blindly following the rules. You can come to different conclusions from the fact that there are several religions: that only one of them is right and you have to follow that religion to be saved, which I find impossible; that they are all wrong, which Iīm personally inclined to believe in; or that there is some kind of supernatural power and people have different ways to deal with it, and none of them is necessarily more right than the others. I think that if there is something supernatural, it canīt be something you can sum up as a text and rules that you follow - it has to be more about interpration, and religions result from peopleīs efforts to understand religious experiences.
Originally posted by Sleepflower
When I said I tried to obey as many commandments as possible the one I find very difficult to obey is 'Thou shalt not take the lords name in vein' it's a hard one because so many people do, I also swear, and find it difficult not to.
Words like fuck, shit and sex related stuff are not talking the lords name in vain, so they aren't actually blasphemy.
I would think the only ones that are - some deriviative of jesus christ, omg, damn, hell, bloody hell, etc.
I'm sure if God existed he would rather people cussed and were nice to each other rather than never taking his name in vain but being real bastards...
I think a lot of stuff in the Bible shouldn't be taken at face value. It's a guide, not a dogma IMHO. Some parts of it are more important and relevant than others.
I think there is a real problem with how far different branches of the Christian church take the bible as the absolute word of god. I find so much of the NT is a reflection of St Paul's personal beliefs that I sometimes feel that the evangelical wing of Christianity should be called Paulians, not christians...
That's the problem - regardless of whether the people who wrote the bible are prophets/ spoken to by god (that's another issue), what they wrote down was their interpretation, i would imagine heavily laced with their opinions and experience, which in turn was heavily influenced by the times in which they lived - it's almost ludicrous to take that as a literal message from God as to how we should behave. (No offence to anyone who believes that, this is just my opinion).
I think the bible, if you are a christian, should be a resource containing messages/morals/words/stories/ideas which can be interpreted to live a better life. Not to find some petty thing and then dogmatically stick to it regardless.
You also have an addition problem of all the writings that were excluded from the bible - although they were comtemporary acounts to those that were chosen. The Apocrypha (excluded texts) makes interesting reading.
Sleepflower
23-07-2003, 08:04
Originally posted by Methadone Pretty
Words like fuck, shit and sex related stuff are not talking the lords name in vain, so they aren't actually blasphemy.
I would think the only ones that are - some deriviative of jesus christ, omg, damn, hell, bloody hell, etc.
Yeah, I kind of meant that, so sorry for my useless way of trying to explain it! lol!
Yeah I do see what you mean, and i don't beleive that it is actually blasphemy, but I do think it's wrong to say them. I don't know, as I've said I use them, so I don't want to contradict myself or sound hypocrtical.
Sleepflower
23-07-2003, 08:08
Originally posted by Pimpf
I'm sure if God existed he would rather people cussed and were nice to each other rather than never taking his name in vain but being real bastards...
I think a lot of stuff in the Bible shouldn't be taken at face value. It's a guide, not a dogma IMHO. Some parts of it are more important and relevant than others.
I do agree with that, and I do think it's better to concentrate on helping others and being nice to them, but I do think it's good to be aware of what you are saying.
Swearing has become part of everday society now and especially taking Gods name in vain, so I think it;s difficult not to do it, but I think it's good to try and stop if you can.
I'm a quaker and I do believe in God, but not many of my friends do and it worries me that they judge me on it or think I'm naiive or brainwashed or something. My 2 best friends have this big thing against christianity, and while I can understand some of their points and I do think quite a bit of the Christian society is messed up, it upsets me they won't understand that I have a lot of respect for the basic principles of it.
I agree that the way God can be believed is through faith of something better and a reason we are here, but I have no concept of afterlife, I find it too confusing.
Dancing May Girl
23-07-2003, 15:54
I don't belive in God or whatever they/he/she are/is called. we have created a sort of "thing" which we can blame for all our actions. I don't think we are controlled by this "thing". We're responsible for us self and nothing else. Religion is this kind of mass psychosis. If we fuck up then we can only blame us self.
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