View Full Version : Battery farm eggs banned by 2012
Corpse In The Bathtub
10-01-2008, 10:02
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7180018.stm
I'm really pleased with this,and I'm glad to read that three more supermarkets are planning to phase out selling battery eggs.
I thought this would be something that would be universally welcomed,aside from the farmers,but having read a bit on the BBC Have your say forum,there seems to be a good deal of resentment towards paying more for free range eggs.
So the question is,is it worth a few more pennies to ensure a better quality of life for an animal?(i suppose you could extend this to free range meat as well as egg production)
Yes, i always buy free range eggs if I can. I'm not taken in by organic farming, but I think it's better if animals are reared in better conditions and not pumped full of chemicals and antibiotics that will make it into our foodchain, so provided those aren't used I'm for organic meat.
But I think we also need to protect the farming industry and make sure farmers are paid reasonably for their goods, as the big supermarkets can just force the prices down so much that it runs farmers out of business or forces them to sell at a loss (milk), I think perhaps there should be some government control on milk at least.
Ooh, that's good news. How could people resent paying a few pence more for free-range eggs? Over here, free-range are, at most, about 50c more expensive than battery eggs, it's not going to break the bank unless you're on the breadline. And the eggs that come from battery hens, all pale yellow yolk and paper thin shells because they haven't been able to run around and peck for grit.
live to fall asleep
10-01-2008, 10:26
Agree with what you said Takk - have always maintained that i would (possibly) start to eat meat again if i could be assured that the animals had been farmed in a good environment and not subjected to undue stress at slaughterhouses etc; although tbh i think that i would find it hard to return to eating any kind of meat now (it's approx 10 years now since i have been a proper veggie :) )
i supose that the farmers will always lose out to the market influence of the supermarkets - whilst regulation would be a good idea, isn't this limited now by EU trading regs? (If would prevent fair trading between EU member states?)
Ooh, that's good news. How could people resent paying a few pence more for free-range eggs? Over here, free-range are, at most, about 50c more expensive than battery eggs, it's not going to break the bank unless you're on the breadline. And the eggs that come from battery hens, all pale yellow yolk and paper thin shells because they haven't been able to run around and peck for grit.
Yeah, i got some battery eggs because they had nothing else, and they aren't as nice as the free range ones, when i make scrambled eggs they are very pale and don't have as nice a taste!
Darklife
10-01-2008, 10:31
Surely it doesn't matter if eggs are battery farm? they haven't got legs to enjoy being free range.
Corpse In The Bathtub
10-01-2008, 10:33
Ooh, that's good news. How could people resent paying a few pence more for free-range eggs? Over here, free-range are, at most, about 50c more expensive than battery eggs, it's not going to break the bank unless you're on the breadline. And the eggs that come from battery hens, all pale yellow yolk and paper thin shells because they haven't been able to run around and peck for grit.
Exactly.Even ignoring the ethical issues here,and so slightly negating my original point,free range eggs taste far superior.The same goes for the meat from animals reared ethically,it tastes much better than the meat off some poor animal thats never developed properly as its only been allowed 10cm of space to move in.
Surely it doesn't matter if eggs are battery farm? they haven't got legs to enjoy being free range.
You're so, so cruel.
http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/edstetzer/HumptyDumptyWEB.jpg
Yeah, i got some battery eggs because they had nothing else, and they aren't as nice as the free range ones, when i make scrambled eggs they are very pale and don't have as nice a taste!
There's no comparison, is there? My nan always keeps about 20 hens so I'm lucky enough to be able to cadge a few from her every now and then and they taste brilliant.
Exactly.Even ignoring the ethical issues here,and so slightly negating my original point,free range eggs taste far superior.The same goes for the meat from animals reared ethically,it tastes much better than the meat off some poor animal thats never developed properly as its only been allowed 10cm of space to move in.
That's so true and it's been proven that the conditions that animals are slaughtered in are just as important for meat quality (as well as animal welfare, of course). Transportation from farms to abbatoirs and the subsequent distress they suffer before slaughter (being prodded and poked, yelled at, the smell of blood, the metallic noises, etc) causes animals to produce stress hormones which toughen their flesh. So even if some people don't care about the animals themselves, at least more humane dispatching could be promoted on the grounds of meat quality.
Darklife
10-01-2008, 10:46
You're so, so cruel.
http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/edstetzer/HumptyDumptyWEB.jpg
He's not a great advert for free range eggs, look how he ended up...
Darklife
10-01-2008, 10:51
In all seriousness this is a good thing but it's still depressing that:
A). It's still going on in this day and age to begin with.
B). It's going to take these supermarkets about five years to get it sorted. Talk about leaving to tomorrow what you can do today
Gillyflower
10-01-2008, 12:03
So the question is,is it worth a few more pennies to ensure a better quality of life for an animal?(i suppose you could extend this to free range meat as well as egg production)YES
That is all.
This should have been done a long time ago. I stopped buying anything other than free range eggs about 21 years ago.
TheSilentMan
10-01-2008, 12:25
My bro-in-law works in the chicken business, and this seems like bullshit legislation to me. Well-intentioned, but still bullshit.
Indoor battery chickens = 12 birds per square metre
'free range' (as I can't be arsed typing it myself, nicked it from another site):
"The Welfare Of Laying Hens Directive, a system of standardising egg production laid down by the Farm Animal Welfare Council, stipulates that for eggs to be termed "free range", hens must have continuous daytime access to runs mainly covered with vegetation, with a maximum of 2,500 birds per hectare.
The Lion Quality Code - a high benchmark in food safety - additionally stipulates outdoor shading and one pop-hole (exit hole) per 600 birds, open eight hours per day to allow access to the outside.
But are these daytime "runs" all they're cracked up to be? Especially when for up to 16 hours a day the hens can be housed in conditions practically identical to that outlined in the "barn" system - preferable to a "caged/battery" system, but still often resulting in up to nine birds perching in every square metre. Not much room to stretch your legs."
So, yeh, 'free range' is pretty bullshit - most of the chickens never go through the pop-hole, and thus are pretty much constantly in battery conditions anyway. Also, regardless to how they're brought up, all the chicks will still be hatched in the same way - in hatcheries where there are trays and trays of eggs in incubators. The chicks are born and spend a day or two crawling over each other on cramped trays, and the dead chicks are in there with them, and the chicks are crawling blindly over one another and scratching each other. Then they're put on a conveyor belt and the dead ones are taken out, and the others are boxed up to be taken to other factories to be allowed to grow and fatten up/lay more eggs. You become pretty desensitized pretty quick when you see a freezer full of bags and bags of frozen dead chicks.
Real free range eggs are wonderful. Normal supermarket free range eggs are OK, but not all that amazing, and it doesn't actually make me feel ethically satisfied for buying free range as I know what the realities are - I just feel satisfied that the eggs taste a little better. Sod this legislation - it's just gonna make the prices go up an absolute shitload. Yes, the chicken farming business isn't a particularly pleasant one, but it's practical, and I can guarantee that your average person will complain more about increasing prices than they've ever done against the horrors of battery farming.
In all seriousness this is a good thing but it's still depressing that:
A). It's still going on in this day and age to begin with.
What, in a world with a rapidly increasing overpopulation problem, you are shocked that people still use mass production of sought-after food?
:up: Jeez, that's interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.
That's it, fuck the foxes, I'm going to get me a coupla wee hens.
The Gutless Wonder
10-01-2008, 12:44
It's about time. All animals should be treated properly even if they are being raised as food for humans.
Jamie_Manic
10-01-2008, 12:51
In all seriousness this is a good thing but it's still depressing that:
A). It's still going on in this day and age to begin with.
^ This
Corpse In The Bathtub
10-01-2008, 12:54
My bro-in-law works in the chicken business, and this seems like bullshit legislation to me. Well-intentioned, but still bullshit.
Indoor battery chickens = 12 birds per square metre
'free range' (as I can't be arsed typing it myself, nicked it from another site):
So, yeh, 'free range' is pretty bullshit - most of the chickens never go through the pop-hole, and thus are pretty much constantly in battery conditions anyway. Also, regardless to how they're brought up, all the chicks will still be hatched in the same way - in hatcheries where there are trays and trays of eggs in incubators. The chicks are born and spend a day or two crawling over each other on cramped trays, and the dead chicks are in there with them, and the chicks are crawling blindly over one another and scratching each other. Then they're put on a conveyor belt and the dead ones are taken out, and the others are boxed up to be taken to other factories to be allowed to grow and fatten up/lay more eggs. You become pretty desensitized pretty quick when you see a freezer full of bags and bags of frozen dead chicks.
Real free range eggs are wonderful. Normal supermarket free range eggs are OK, but not all that amazing, and it doesn't actually make me feel ethically satisfied for buying free range as I know what the realities are - I just feel satisfied that the eggs taste a little better. Sod this legislation - it's just gonna make the prices go up an absolute shitload. Yes, the chicken farming business isn't a particularly pleasant one, but it's practical, and I can guarantee that your average person will complain more about increasing prices than they've ever done against the horrors of battery farming.
Ok but there's three types of systems for egg production as i understand it and three types of eggs: battery eggs,barn eggs and free range eggs.Battery eggs come from chickens kept in tiny cages,often a number of chickens will be squashed into one cage,where they never see sunlight,have no room to move and are simply tossed away and replaced with a new hen in that cage.
The barn system is where chickens are kept in a barn,rather than cages,free to roam,with a small yard area accessed by a small chute.This system is less abhorrent than battery farming,but still,as you say,means the chickens are indoors most of the time.
Now of course free range is only truly free range when chickens have large green areas to roam and are indiviually cared for(rather than the automated feed and ventillation systems found in barn and battery farming).As this is impractical for large scale egg production,free range essentially means much the same as the barn system,with larger otudoor areas and smaller sheds.Still much better than a battery system,even if the term,"free range" is something of a misnomer.
Battery hens have been known to turn to cannibalism and harming other chickens in their cages,which is why many have their beaks sliced off by workers in the battery farms.As the beak has important pain receptors in their quality of life is greatly reduced.
As these hens often have no access to sunlight their bones frequently become brittle thorugh lack of calcium and if not killed by farm workers generally die from paralysis and starvation as they cannot reach food.Caged battery hens reguarly experience loss of legs,deformaties and tumours.
Marcellin Caillou
10-01-2008, 13:23
It may be worth pointing out that this is not exactly news and that maybe the government and producers have being doing fuck all about this until now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/264607.stm
Darklife
10-01-2008, 13:40
What, in a world with a rapidly increasing overpopulation problem, you are shocked that people still use mass production of sought-after food?
Didn't say i was shocked, just that it's depressing. And the mass production of food probably has more to do with the growing obesity in the western world than over population
And the mass production of food probably has more to do with the growing obesity in the western world than over population
And food wastage is surely a factor too.
Marcellin Caillou
10-01-2008, 14:06
Does anyone how much space would be needed in the UK to move from battery to free range egg production? And then from battery to free range chicken production?
Corpse In The Bathtub
10-01-2008, 14:38
Does anyone how much space would be needed in the UK to move from battery to free range egg production? And then from battery to free range chicken production?
The average size of a battery chicken cage is about 40cm by 40cm,but they can often contain 2-5 chickens.
Obviously the size of free range farms varies, and the concentration of animals per unit of space is far less,but equate this with the suffering these animals face.
On the new size under the 2012 EU directive
After the deadline, laying hens will have be raised in the open air or barns, or be kept in cages of at least 750 square centimeters (116.28 sq. inches) per bird equipped with a nest, litter, perch and clawing board.
I'm no good at maths, how much bigger is that than 40x40?
TheSilentMan
10-01-2008, 14:42
The average size of a battery chicken cage is about 40cm by 40cm,but they can often contain 2-5 chickens.
Obviously the size of free range farms varies, and the concentration of animals per unit of space is far less,but equate this with the suffering these animals face.
http://www.hazeldenes.com.au/images/recipe/rec_rst_ros_glc_hor.jpg
Looks happy to me!
Is 40 x 40 is 1600cm sq? But the 750cm sq is for one hen and the larger cage is for multiple birds?
I've a feeling I've just revealed my maths thickness...
Corpse In The Bathtub
10-01-2008, 14:45
Is 40 x 40 is 1600cm sq? But the 750cm sq is for one hen and the larger cage is for multiple birds?
I've a feeling I've just revealed my maths thickness...
It may well be my thickness!Im estimating on what ive seen here.
Last Exit
10-01-2008, 18:41
People are just going to have to eat less animal produce.
On the new size under the 2012 EU directive
I'm no good at maths, how much bigger is that than 40x40?
The new directive size will be around the size of a cushion so probably it's a bit smaller though the space is for the one bird rather than 2-5. OK, I got some help with the maths ... though first of all they misheard and said roughly enough space to keep a herd of cows in. That'd be free range alright.
Marcellin Caillou
10-01-2008, 19:37
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. How many more square miles will be required to move from battery farmed hens which in HFW's example had 2,500 take up half a barn, to free-range hens which had 1,500 take up the other half of a barn and a field?
I think that those were the numbers, I got confused by the numbers quoted over the past three days.
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. How many more square miles will be required to move from battery farmed hens which in HFW's example had 2,500 take up half a barn, to free-range hens which had 1,500 take up the other half of a barn and a field?
I think that those were the numbers, I got confused by the numbers quoted over the past three days.
Too many numbers for an evening. Shall we guess around twice as much space as now with a bit of leeway either way?? Would many farms simply convert what they have, possibly with the result of fewer chickens but that could be erm what's the word offset by the number of birds that will survive long enough to be erm slaughtered and the higher prices
The Gutless Wonder
14-01-2008, 12:35
Watched Jamie Ollivers programme. Very good. Hope it makes people think.
Corpse In The Bathtub
14-01-2008, 12:37
Watched Jamie Ollivers programme. Very good. Hope it makes people think.
Didnt even realise he was doing a programme on battery farming.What did the programme cover?
Didnt even realise he was doing a programme on battery farming.What did the programme cover?
'Jamie's Fowl Dinner' - it's being argued over in Culture Sluts in the Channel 4 thread. It's a shame you missed it it was brilliant stuff, covered the chicken and the egg (though didn't answer which came first). The first half considered where our eggs come from and how it got to this and the second half followed the broiler chickens. Essentially started at the beginning of the process all the way through to the egg/chicken reaching your plate.
The new EU directives were pretty quicly despatched, it seems more than likely that the battery hen cages will simply be converted to 'enriched' cages, in short the long cage they're now kept in and which is partitioned into lots of small cages will become the one long cage with still barely any room to turn around in ... at the same time the EU is increasing the number of birds permitted to be held in one enclosure/barn, God knows what the thinking is beyond 'taking the piss' to quote Jamie Oliver
Buddy_Holly
14-01-2008, 20:28
I can't be arsed to read through the entire 3 pages of this (yeah I'm lazy) but just in case anyone hasn't already worked it out... the egg came first. The reason being that all birds including chickens evolved from small dinosaurs, and dinosaurs as we know were reptiles and hatched from eggs.
Why do we have to wait untill 2012, why not just ban them now? For those farms that need time to either change to free range, or just simply go bust, tough fuckery.
I can't be arsed to read through the entire 3 pages of this (yeah I'm lazy) but just in case anyone hasn't already worked it out... the egg came first. The reason being that all birds including chickens evolved from small dinosaurs, and dinosaurs as we know were reptiles and hatched from eggs.
Why do we have to wait untill 2012, why not just ban them now? For those farms that need time to either change to free range, or just simply go bust, tough fuckery.
Great attitude. Farmers get screwed over by just about everything, it's not unreasonable to give them some time to adjust, they are acting within the law currently, after all.
*lisa simpson*
14-01-2008, 21:36
'Jamie's Fowl Dinner' - it was brilliant stuff
well, it would've been if it had had more gore :whistle:
Marcellin Caillou
14-01-2008, 21:36
Great attitude. Farmers get screwed over by just about everything, it's not unreasonable to give them some time to adjust, they are acting within the law currently, after all.They have had at least seven years to prepare. Between 1999 and 2012 is sufficient time, don't you think?
Yes, but just saying "fuck the farmers, bring it in now" is a bit unfair - seeing as how they do have other concerns on their time. Any idea of the cost of the changeover?
*lisa simpson*
14-01-2008, 21:41
:up: yeah, i think unless farmers are assisted by the government in making the necessary changes, it will take some time. in fact it will even with assistance i suppose.
i do agree that the egg came first though.
Great attitude. Farmers get screwed over by just about everything, it's not unreasonable to give them some time to adjust, they are acting within the law currently, after all.
It's not so much the farmers as the industry as a whole dragging its feet it seems, within which the farmer often seems more puppet than player that and bureaucracy. Switzerland banned cages back in 1991, they're not a member of the EU. Though for those who opt to swap from cramped cage to enriched cage should take all of an afternoon's work. Some countries have had it higher on their list of priorities than others depending how much public interest it generates and all are concerned that tightening regulations might lower production/raise costs and lead to more cheap imports. Hence the likelihood that many will simply 'enrich' their cages. International regulation would involve the WTO not a directly elected body and of the mindset that any welfare regulation is automatically harmful to 'free trade'.
Oh and - dinosaur or egg?
*lisa simpson*
15-01-2008, 00:42
:up: still the egg, i reckon.
Again, i'm afraid egg. The Archosaurs and diapsids clearly predate the dinosaurs, and they had eggs. So the first dinosaur came out of an egg. But that just raises the question... (it's a long scheme of events via fish).
Although if we are being correct, a chicken is a dinosaur really.
*lisa simpson*
15-01-2008, 00:43
:up: my thoughts exactly, i'm just glad someone was around to phrase it so they sounded like they knew what they were talking about.
I was trying to find some pictures of the earliest amniotes, but can't find any decent ones, as I guess they'd be the first 'egg' so to speak, although of course older, less evolved animals like some of the fish would have had eggs.
Of course it's a bit questionable when the first amniote appeared as they tend to base it on less obvious things like knee/ankle joints and having a certain amount of fingers, since eggs don't fossilise very well [/digress]
The Gutless Wonder
15-01-2008, 11:29
The egg or chicken first thing is quite simple really but lets not start on that subject in this thread! Whilst passing the homes of some Asian families I spotted some lovely, healthy looking chickens, really robust ones and I just thought it's a shame all chickens/animals used for the food industry can't enjoy just pottering outside in the open on a patch of grass. The poor things don't ask for much!
*lisa simpson*
15-01-2008, 11:58
:up: ah but this is something about these arguments that bothers me (and bothered me in jamie's thing too) - and i'll probably be shot down for being mean and heartless (or it'll start a healthy debate, who knows...?) but hey.
the idea of a chicken being happy to just potter is what bothers me. i'm all for animal welfare in terms of if a method of farming causes an animal to be obviously (be it visually or by interpretation of their actions) in pain or in poor health and that kind of thing, and i would hope that methods that increase damage to the animal could be used very sparingly.
but who knows what makes a chicken happy. in fact, who knows whether a chicken (or any animal) can be happy? when jamie kept going on about the happy outdoor birds i was thinking "they're animals, they don't have self awareness. stop anthropomorphising (sp) them."
i realise that animals should be treated kindly - i would never dream of hurting my two cats - but this is where i take issue with animal rights types as well: how can something have rights if it doesn't have a rational consciousness or self awareness?
on a side note i think this argument relates to abortion too - when does a foetus become a sentient/aware being. you could even argue that a baby doesn't have self awareness for the first couple of weeks. not that i want to go around aborting already born babies. but that's a whole different discussion :)
Darklife
15-01-2008, 12:04
i realise that animals should be treated kindly - i would never dream of hurting my two cats - but this is where i take issue with animal rights types as well: how can something have rights if it doesn't have a rational consciousness or self awareness?
surely your cats have self awareness of some degree - like most (semi) intelligent animals
Darklife
15-01-2008, 12:06
Watched Jamie Ollivers programme. Very good. Hope it makes people think.
The man annoys me.
I saw the programme of his where he kept banging on about Turkey Twizlers and all I got from that was a craving for them
The Gutless Wonder
15-01-2008, 12:07
:up: ah but this is something about these arguments that bothers me (and bothered me in jamie's thing too) - and i'll probably be shot down for being mean and heartless (or it'll start a healthy debate, who knows...?) but hey.
the idea of a chicken being happy to just potter is what bothers me. i'm all for animal welfare in terms of if a method of farming causes an animal to be obviously (be it visually or by interpretation of their actions) in pain or in poor health and that kind of thing, and i would hope that methods that increase damage to the animal could be used very sparingly.
but who knows what makes a chicken happy. in fact, who knows whether a chicken (or any animal) can be happy? when jamie kept going on about the happy outdoor birds i was thinking "they're animals, they don't have self awareness. stop anthropomorphising (sp) them."
i realise that animals should be treated kindly - i would never dream of hurting my two cats - but this is where i take issue with animal rights types as well: how can something have rights if it doesn't have a rational consciousness or self awareness?
on a side note i think this argument relates to abortion too - when does a foetus become a sentient/aware being. you could even argue that a baby doesn't have self awareness for the first couple of weeks. not that i want to go around aborting already born babies. but that's a whole different discussion :)
We know that with regards to foetuses they ARE taking in information etc as soon as that cell splits and starts to develop. It's not a fully formed life but it's still a life. Of course animals can be happy and have enjoyment. Not on the same level as humans but it's there all the same. Scientists have even discovered that plant life can express discomfort in some ways!
*lisa simpson*
15-01-2008, 12:13
surely your cats have self awareness of some degree - like most (semi) intelligent animals
not sure about self awareness - even at a year old they jump if they see a mirror :)
but yeah, they do have a degree of learning from experience, and they seem to have a degree of intelligence (caught one of them eating my breakfast this morning!) and they definitely have a degree of loyalty (the other follows me around *all* the time).
i'm probably contradicting myself, because i've just talked about my cats' personalities - basically i just wish that the likes of tv presenters who make shows about these things could just stop humanising the animals. i think it's horrible the way some animals are treated, i think they definitely know what pain is and don't want it, and i think that hurting them should be avoided. however they're not human and the idea that a chicken has this little fantasy going around its head in which it's all grass and flowers and cocks with big cocks and they'll all live happily ever after is just really silly, i think.
of course, i can't claim to know what does go through the mind of a chicken, so i may be wrong.
TGW: as for the foetus thing: i've had the abortion debate too many times, and i think it's a whole other debate than this one. i should prob delete my initial comment :S
Darklife
15-01-2008, 12:16
TGW: as for the foetus thing: i've had the abortion debate too many times, and i think it's a whole other debate than this one. i should prob delete my initial comment :S
I don't know about the ethics behind editing posts and deleting comments. Just becuase you've changed your mind, doesn't that comment deserve the right to be read as much as the rest of the post? :p
*lisa simpson*
15-01-2008, 12:28
:up: i haven't changed my mind, i just know what happens when threads get derailed and i don't want to be responsible for the vast shift in topic from whether chickens are happy to whether abortions are ok. i just think if i delete it, it'll save the derailment.
of course, if anyone feels really strongly about it, they can start an "is abortion ok?" thread elsewhere, but this argument's been done here countless times already....
We know that with regards to foetuses they ARE taking in information etc as soon as that cell splits and starts to develop. It's not a fully formed life but it's still a life. Of course animals can be happy and have enjoyment. Not on the same level as humans but it's there all the same. Scientists have even discovered that plant life can express discomfort in some ways!
A single fertilised cell dividing does not take any more information in than one of your normal cells...(but let's not drag this debate off course).
The Gutless Wonder
15-01-2008, 12:35
A single fertilised cell dividing does not take any more information in than one of your normal cells...(but let's not drag this debate off course).
Once the cell starts dividing the process has started in it growing into a human baby but we'll leave that for the correct thread. I didn't think the Freedom Foods barn was much of an improvement for the chickens. What does everyone else think. They did get a bit of stimulation I suppose.
Tom Traubert
15-01-2008, 12:57
People are just going to have to eat less animal produce.
Not at all. Please don't come here with vegetarian fascist death squad spiel, ta.
I am 100% behind survival of the fittest. At the moment, humanity is the "fittest" species on the planet - we have evolved to the point at which we can keep lesser species for food. However, with such evolution comes the responsibility of being this planet's caretakers - we need to make sure our practices our ethical, sustainable and ecologically sound.
The fact of the matter is this:
Supermarkets are big evil bastards (with the notable exception of the Co-Op) in many ways. They pay their staff appallingly (seriously, you can earn more at McDonalds), food is overpriced and unethically sourced. As far as possible (which isn't always that far, due to my living in a city and working 12 hour days), I try to make sure that my dairy products and especially my meat are locally sourced. You cannot beat a proper steak from a cow that's been able to spend its time wandering a large field, eating the grass it wants to eat. Excess stress on an animal is not only unfair to them, it increases lactic acid in the meat, and makes it taste manky.
I can't be arsed to read through the entire 3 pages of this (yeah I'm lazy) but just in case anyone hasn't already worked it out... the egg came first. The reason being that all birds including chickens evolved from small dinosaurs, and dinosaurs as we know were reptiles and hatched from eggs.
Why do we have to wait untill 2012, why not just ban them now? For those farms that need time to either change to free range, or just simply go bust, tough fuckery.
Well, for a start, farms would lose money, so any current ethically sound practices they have would become economically non-viable. Do I need to go any further?
*lisa simpson*
15-01-2008, 13:06
I am 100% behind survival of the fittest. At the moment, humanity is the "fittest" species on the planet - we have evolved to the point at which we can keep lesser species for food. However, with such evolution comes the responsibility of being this planet's caretakers - we need to make sure our practices our ethical, sustainable and ecologically sound.
that was very well put. i'm the same.
As far as possible (which isn't always that far, due to my living in a city and working 12 hour days), I try to make sure that my dairy products and especially my meat are locally sourced.
you might find this website useful (you may already know of it):
http://www.thelfd.com/
Tom Traubert
15-01-2008, 13:09
you might find this website useful (you may already know of it):
http://www.thelfd.com/
I didn't, and it's ace! Bookmarked.
Edit: Except there's only one entry in any category in Lancashire, and this is a butcher's in Wigan, which is a bit odd as we all know that they only accept food if it's minced up and made into a pie. Ho hum.
*lisa simpson*
15-01-2008, 13:14
:up: it's great isn't it? i only found it recently but i love it!
That*Manics*Feeling
15-01-2008, 15:03
I only buy eggs from happy chickens that run around in fields all day :D
Tom Traubert
15-01-2008, 15:07
They do taste better though, don't they? It's like the difference between organic, locally sourced veg and supermarket stuff. Which carrot is going to taste better - the one that was sprayed with pesticides strong enough to kill a fair-sized dog, then picked, driven halfway across the country and sold a week later, or the one picked, in the shop the next day, probably still with mud from the field on it?
Meh, organic vegetables are not all they are cracked up to be. I don't think the mud being on them makes a lot of difference, and they are allowed to use a couple (or at least used to be allowed) of pesticides. Plus being fertilised and covered with animal manure and dirt means they can be contaminated with bacteria and disease more than non-organic veg. I think it's largely a bit of a con calling something 'organic' if it's still mass produced, because it needn't be any better. And feeding a plant with exactly what it needs doesn't mean it will taste bad...
Locally sourced and home grown veg is something else though, and is always going to taste better than mass produced stuff that's been driven around, stored, chilled by supermarkets etc.
Organic meat I think is slightly different, because it's definitely a bonus if the cows are not being pumped full of drugs and antibiotics...
That*Manics*Feeling
15-01-2008, 15:47
our chickens eggs taste even nicer than the free range ones we get from the butchers!
Tom Traubert
15-01-2008, 15:50
Locally sourced and home grown veg is something else though, and is always going to taste better than mass produced stuff that's been driven around, stored, chilled by supermarkets etc.
Yup, that'll be exactly what I said...
Buddy_Holly
15-01-2008, 17:58
Well, for a start, farms would lose money, so any current ethically sound practices they have would become economically non-viable. Do I need to go any further?
Yes I think you do. What ethically sound practices does a battery farm have then? The only ones loosing out would be those with battery chickens, to which I say 'fuck em' tough shit . Besides, they'd probably get subsidised anyway so I doubt very much that any farmer would be losing out.
My parents get fresh chicken eggs from a friend of theirs who keeps a few in their garden. You have to whack them ridiculously hard to get them to break open.
:up: ah but this is something about these arguments that bothers me (and bothered me in jamie's thing too) - and i'll probably be shot down for being mean and heartless (or it'll start a healthy debate, who knows...?) but hey.
the idea of a chicken being happy to just potter is what bothers me. i'm all for animal welfare in terms of if a method of farming causes an animal to be obviously (be it visually or by interpretation of their actions) in pain or in poor health and that kind of thing, and i would hope that methods that increase damage to the animal could be used very sparingly.
but who knows what makes a chicken happy. in fact, who knows whether a chicken (or any animal) can be happy? when jamie kept going on about the happy outdoor birds i was thinking "they're animals, they don't have self awareness. stop anthropomorphising (sp) them."
i realise that animals should be treated kindly - i would never dream of hurting my two cats - but this is where i take issue with animal rights types as well: how can something have rights if it doesn't have a rational consciousness or self awareness?
I think you're thinking about this too much:) As you say we know animals feel pain and distress and discomfort they give clear signs of such, they don't all give signs of 'happy' - though many get excited and so 'happy' as far as we can tell, like a dog greeting its owner wagging its tail dashing round in circles all looks a bit 'happy' to me. With other animals it's maybe not obvious they feel joy but if they're not in pain, not in discomfort they're a healthier animal and they seem to engage more in their natural behaviours and habits, they're much more chickeny chickens if that's a better word? And all the arguments for their welfare are to provide just that, as natural an environment and diet as possible and a death which is quick and pain-free, a healthy bird.
I don't think it's so wrong to assume happy, do your cats not seem to feel pleasure when stretched in the sun or in front of the fire or when they're being petted? we can't know they're conscious of it to the extent we are it's true (though we tend to ruin it by thinking of how it won't last, maybe our superior intelligence in a way limits our ability to simply be happy) but we can't know they're not
{Originally Posted by Last Exit
People are just going to have to eat less animal produce.]
Not at all. Please don't come here with vegetarian fascist death squad spiel, ta.
I am 100% behind survival of the fittest. At the moment, humanity is the "fittest" species on the planet - we have evolved to the point at which we can keep lesser species for food. However, with such evolution comes the responsibility of being this planet's caretakers - we need to make sure our practices our ethical, sustainable and ecologically sound.
How is recommending people eat less meat 'vegetarian fascist death squad spiel'? She didn't say give it up just cut back, sound advice ... it is the sheer scale of production that's got us into this mess, and 45 million chickens in this country alone are killed to be thrown away cos they're too sickly or small to be killed/sold for meat, that's 'waste' on an obscene scale. And abuse, when that number are killed cos they're not up to standard they're no longer birds but what? Cans of beans? Fresh healthy meat is good for you it's true but cutting back on the KFC's, pre-packed, processed, fast foods would be better for health as well as taking the pressure off the industry to produce such vast amounts in such short time
Humanity might be arguably the most intelligent species on the planet, I'm not sure we're the fittest, well yes we're incredibly adaptable to life on the planet but all species are in their way. (I could be being pedantic, a bit yep:p but) And if we live off other animals, and plants, so do other species how does that make us better? In that we breed/farm them for meat as opposed to tracking/hunting? OK, though many animals display not a little skill when it comes to capturing their prey (more pedanticy??) I agree with your premis that with such superior intelligence (generally speaking) comes responsibilities, we've tended to overdo the adapting our environment to suit our needs whilst overlooking the need to adapt ourselves to means which will sustain the planet and ensure that it, and we, have a future
*lisa simpson*
15-01-2008, 19:34
I think you're thinking about this too much:)
i think i probably am :)
Darklife
16-01-2008, 08:47
I know you shouldn't laugh, but Jamie Oliver's Cornwall restaurant has been found ordering battery eggs...
Tom Traubert
16-01-2008, 11:34
Yes I think you do. What ethically sound practices does a battery farm have then? The only ones loosing out would be those with battery chickens, to which I say 'fuck em' tough shit . Besides, they'd probably get subsidised anyway so I doubt very much that any farmer would be losing out.
Would you like to blame anything on immigration while you're here? You do sound like a Daily Mail reader...
OK, so I'll elaborate. Battery farming is one of the last non-ethically sound methods of farming still in practice. Maybe they look after the rest of their animals in a totally fair way. Imposing immediate sanctions on battery farming would need huge subsidies, and that'd come out of the tax payer's pocket (I put this line in because I feel it will appeal to you). Gradual change is the only viable method of change. Do you think the peace process in Northern Ireland would've got this far if the ceasefire/guns amnesty/assembly process had happened immediately? Of course it wouldn't.
Stop flailing.
How is recommending people eat less meat 'vegetarian fascist death squad spiel'? She didn't say give it up just cut back, sound advice ... it is the sheer scale of production that's got us into this mess, and 45 million chickens in this country alone are killed to be thrown away cos they're too sickly or small to be killed/sold for meat, that's 'waste' on an obscene scale. And abuse, when that number are killed cos they're not up to standard they're no longer birds but what? Cans of beans? Fresh healthy meat is good for you it's true but cutting back on the KFC's, pre-packed, processed, fast foods would be better for health as well as taking the pressure off the industry to produce such vast amounts in such short time
When did I mention fast food? As far as I was aware, I'd only talked about organically reared, locally sourced meat...
Nobody should tell me or anyone else what to eat, beyond what is ethical. Far too many organisations encroach on our personal freedoms as it is, and to me it reeks of militant vegetarianism, which is just another ism, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think I really understand the rest of that part of your post.
Humanity might be arguably the most intelligent species on the planet, I'm not sure we're the fittest, well yes we're incredibly adaptable to life on the planet but all species are in their way. (I could be being pedantic, a bit yep:p but) And if we live off other animals, and plants, so do other species how does that make us better? In that we breed/farm them for meat as opposed to tracking/hunting? OK, though many animals display not a little skill when it comes to capturing their prey (more pedanticy??) I agree with your premis that with such superior intelligence (generally speaking) comes responsibilities, we've tended to overdo the adapting our environment to suit our needs whilst overlooking the need to adapt ourselves to means which will sustain the planet and ensure that it, and we, have a future
We are the fittest in the Darwinist sense. By "fittest", he means "most able to survive". Previously, that was who was the most athletic, strongest and the best hunter, now it's who is most intelligent, can get the best job and can shout the loudest. I'm not by any stretch of the imagination suggesting that humanity is going the right way about being the dominant species, but the fact remains that we are, and will be until the end of the world.
When did I mention fast food? As far as I was aware, I'd only talked about organically reared, locally sourced meat...
Nobody should tell me or anyone else what to eat, beyond what is ethical. Far too many organisations encroach on our personal freedoms as it is, and to me it reeks of militant vegetarianism, which is just another ism, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think I really understand the rest of that part of your post.
You didn't and what's more I didn't say you did. Last Exit simply said we all need to cut back on our meat consumption and you accused her of pushing a Nazi version of vegetarianism down people's throats. A tad extreme no? I was simply saying it makes sense for everyone, not just you personally, to cut back for it's ultimately supply and demand and supply has continually increased particularly with the rise in fast foods/convenience foods. It's the huge rise that has led us to battery farms. Don't take it so personally. I don't really understand the need to start shouting Nazis, Daily Mail and immigration but there you go
We are the fittest in the Darwinist sense. By "fittest", he means "most able to survive". Previously, that was who was the most athletic, strongest and the best hunter, now it's who is most intelligent, can get the best job and can shout the loudest. I'm not by any stretch of the imagination suggesting that humanity is going the right way about being the dominant species, but the fact remains that we are, and will be until the end of the world.
By the fittest he meant the fittest for their environment not necessarily the strongest nor the most intelligent and he was referring to members of the species he wasn't pitting species against species. For example the iguanas on the Galapagos Islands are all iguanas but they display different characteristics on different islands in short they've adapted to their conditions, the most 'fit' for their environment have survived
That*Manics*Feeling
17-01-2008, 00:22
My parents get fresh chicken eggs from a friend of theirs who keeps a few in their garden. You have to whack them ridiculously hard to get them to break open.
Yeah I know, ours are like that!
Tom Traubert
28-01-2008, 11:44
You didn't and what's more I didn't say you did. Last Exit simply said we all need to cut back on our meat consumption and you accused her of pushing a Nazi version of vegetarianism down people's throats. A tad extreme no? I was simply saying it makes sense for everyone, not just you personally, to cut back for it's ultimately supply and demand and supply has continually increased particularly with the rise in fast foods/convenience foods. It's the huge rise that has led us to battery farms. Don't take it so personally. I don't really understand the need to start shouting Nazis, Daily Mail and immigration but there you go
I think the reason for me shouting Nazis and The Daily Mail is fairly obvious. You lot rise to the bait every time, and it makes me laugh...
By the fittest he meant the fittest for their environment not necessarily the strongest nor the most intelligent and he was referring to members of the species he wasn't pitting species against species. For example the iguanas on the Galapagos Islands are all iguanas but they display different characteristics on different islands in short they've adapted to their conditions, the most 'fit' for their environment have survived
Which is EXACTLY what I said! Humans are the fittest for the environment because we are so adaptable. What other animal can live in the desert, the Arctic, wetlands - there are very few places (with the exception of the ocean) that are "uninhabitable". With Darwinism, it's pretty obvious that whilst he made not have explicitly made comparisons between species, successful characteristics are what makes individuals within a species dominant. The most successful characteristic is "hard to kill", which pretty much assumes that other species are involved.
I think the reason for me shouting Nazis and The Daily Mail is fairly obvious. You lot rise to the bait every time, and it makes me laugh....
How old are you?
Which is EXACTLY what I said! Humans are the fittest for the environment because we are so adaptable. What other animal can live in the desert, the Arctic, wetlands - there are very few places (with the exception of the ocean) that are "uninhabitable". With Darwinism, it's pretty obvious that whilst he made not have explicitly made comparisons between species, successful characteristics are what makes individuals within a species dominant. The most successful characteristic is "hard to kill", which pretty much assumes that other species are involved.
No you didn't:p Could be I just don't have a friggin' clue what you're on about of course. OK, are you saying, in the above post, that essentially humans are the most adaptable creature on the planet? ... I'm following. But Darwin did not compare and contrast between species to work out which was the fittest he was looking within species and finding how the most successful were those best able to adapt to their environment.
Just give in and let me have the last word!:)
I'm not disagreeing that humans are the most intelligent species and have become the dominant species and with that comes responsibility, a responsibility that say an iguana doesn't have because as incredible as they are they don't possess the ability to reason as we do, to understand how what they do impacts on others nor are they capable of having as great an impact, or more to the point as destructive an impact as we are.
I sometimes and this is separate to what you're saying so don't yell, but I sometimes cringe a bit at the idea of humans as superior because some people, not you, get overly caught up in trying to separate us absolutely from all other animals and time and time again another species is found to demonstrate the same abilities so we move the goalposts again to separate ourselves instead of just recognising we are more intelligent but in many ways we're not all that different, Plus it loses some of the wonder if we're too caught up in working out how we're better than a chimp we forget to just let ourselves be amazed by how much a chimp is capable of, all species are fascinating in their own right and many are truly incredible. - This last bit is purely my observation and in no way a dig at you, alright?
PS Isn't a lion a bit 'hard to kill'? Or the tiger? The crocodile? Sorry, I'll just pop back behind my Daily Mail here
Tom Traubert
28-01-2008, 21:24
http://bp2.blogger.com/_S7VnD0PV1GY/Rd3xMqppKwI/AAAAAAAAAQ0/DATRxtmaBZQ/s400/chimp+gun.jpeg
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