Morrissey vs Canada [Archive] - Forever Delayed

funiculus

28-03-2006, 20:18

I'm not really sure if this should go in other music or discussion... it kind of fits this more because I don't really want to discuss Morrissey's music exactly, but his last post on true-to-you.net. Basically he's "boycotting" Canada because of the seal culling that happens on the east coast.

I have a few issues with this:
1. He wouldn't have toured the maritimes ANYWAY. He would've just done a Toronto show, so one has very little to do with the other.

2. Although he made it into the globe and mail (canadian newspaper) this will do very little to help the cause. If he felt so strongly about it, I think it would've made more sense to do a few shows and then use that money to raise awareness of the issue (there are probably a billion ways of doing this!)

3. The issue itself is not really black and white. There are so many reasons why seals need to be killed. Don't get me wrong, I don't like it AT ALL and the images are very hard to take, but then again there would be thousands (millions?) of people without jobs if seals were allowed to reproduce at their current rate and eat all the fish. I don't know any figures, but a HUGE amount of the economy in that part of Canada rests on fishing. I'm a vegetarian, and I really don't like that that's the way it is (that people kill fish), but at the end of the day, I'd rather a fish die, than a fellow human.

What do you guys think?

JamesyEsquire

28-03-2006, 20:22

I signed a petition about this today and while i accept some culling may be necessary there must surely be better ways than clubbing them to death

funiculus

28-03-2006, 20:25

I signed a petition about this today and while i accept some culling may be necessary there must surely be better ways than clubbing them to death
Although I understand the image is horrific, from what I've read it appears to be just as humane as any other way of killing them.

Is it just the WAY in which they are killed that caused you to sign the petition? Just curious! :)

JamesyEsquire

28-03-2006, 20:33

well i dont see it as a humane way really i mean if you dont hit them hard enough on the first blow then they wont die straight away plus people are just clubbing them for pleasure also

mafiamonroe

28-03-2006, 20:42

Just look at a seal and then at a human being. Which one looks more likely to live in the sea? The arguement that they eat all the fish is mental. They are seals! That's what they are created to do.

Charlie Spotted

28-03-2006, 20:49

borntoend

28-03-2006, 20:50

It does always make me wonder whether people who endorse this kind of cull know much about predator-prey dynamics... surely if the seal population gets too big, it will naturally decrease due to both increased predation from polar bears, and decreased fish supply? Anyone who knows anything about this above GCSE level, feel free to correct me...

funiculus

28-03-2006, 20:51

Well... I think that things don't really have to look humane in order to be humane. Plus, when cows, chickens, pigs (etc etc) are killed, they may not die straight away either, but MOST of the time they are, and that is good enough for most people (myself not included... if I did eat meat, I'd have to buy it from a local farmer, to be honest). It's just unfortunate, I suppose, that cows, chickens, pigs, fish (etc) are not as cute as seals and, therefore, do not matter as much to most people (Morrissey included!)

Also, no one enjoys harming another creature unless they are a sociopath, so I don't see why that needs to be brought into the picture, really.

raven

28-03-2006, 20:52

The Canadian government subsidises the cull though. Though many Canadians are against the cull.

And the cull accounts for less than 1% of Newfoundlands GDP and brings in about 1000 dollars for a erm culler each year. So a ban seems unlikely to ruin the economy. Also re the impact of seals on the cod population - it's actually unknown. And, cod represents only 3 % of the harp seal's diet. Surely over fishing by humans is a bigger concern?

The seals are really slaughtered for their pelts - luxury is no justification for killing any animal.

http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/default.aspx?oid=85346

http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/pp.asp?c=dhKPI1PFIqE&b=437193

funiculus

28-03-2006, 20:55

I'm not an animal rights person, nor a vegitarian. I do support Morrissey's right to protest about something that he clearly has very strong views on HOWEVER I think he's got the method all wrong - the act of boycotting shows will have very little effect on public opinion of the trade, what it will serve to do is to show again how little respect he has for his fanbase. He showed no respect to the fans who bought tickets for the Isle Of Wight Festival, and he's now showing similarly little respect for his Canadian fans. It's a worrying trend.
Urgh... I love Morrissey so much, but I'd just rather say that he didn't think this through properly instead of saying that he doesn't care about his fans. I think he does... but he just doesn't know how to show it, really. And I don't think he realises the impact of his presence on his fans :/

funiculus

28-03-2006, 20:55

funiculus

28-03-2006, 21:11

The Canadian government subsidises the cull though. Though many Canadians are against the cull.
I think probably most people don't care, to be honest. I know this is probably really sad, but I'd say around 80-90% of people in Canada don't really care.

And the cull accounts for less than 1% of Newfoundlands GDP and brings in about 1000 dollars for a erm culler each year. So a ban seems unlikely to ruin the economy. Also re the impact of seals on the cod population - it's actually unknown. And, cod represents only 3 % of the harp seal's diet. Surely over fishing by humans is a bigger concern?
I didn't mean that people would make money just by culling, but rather by not culling they would lose money in the long run by having fewer fish etc. What else do seals eat? I really haven't got a clue! I thought cod would be something more like 80% of their diet! 3% is very low... what else do they eat?
Well, it's not that I think that it's better that people eat fish, but if they get money from it and are able to support themselves and their families, then I'd rather that to be honest. I know that may sound weird for a vegetarian to say that, but I really value the lives of humans over nonhumans. Period.

The seals are really slaughtered for their pelts - luxury is no justification for killing any animal.
Err, I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. Of course that's no justification, but that's NOT the justification...
Also, I don't trust any animal rights websites. Their "facts" are from sources that don't really exist and are horribly skewed!

borntoend

28-03-2006, 21:18

Suppose you're right, but then that means that seals could potentially be dying of starvation which I don't see as much better?

Well it's part of nature. Animals naturally die of starvation all the time, it's just how the natural system works. There's evidence that fox hunting in the UK can actually increase an area's fox population by increasing the need for vixens to produce cubs; the same is entirely possible in Canada I'm sure.

adore failure

28-03-2006, 21:31

raven

28-03-2006, 21:43

I think probably most people don't care, to be honest. I know this is probably really sad, but I'd say around 80-90% of people in Canada don't really care.

I didn't mean that people would make money just by culling, but rather by not culling they would lose money in the long run by having fewer fish etc. What else do seals eat? I really haven't got a clue! I thought cod would be something more like 80% of their diet! 3% is very low... what else do they eat?.!

They eat Atlantic cod only at certain times of the year and in certain places. Much of their diet is made up of smaller, fatty fish, like capellin

Well, it's not that I think that it's better that people eat fish, but if they get money from it and are able to support themselves and their families, then I'd rather that to be honest. I know that may sound weird for a vegetarian to say that, but I really value the lives of humans over nonhumans. Period.

Err, I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. Of course that's no justification, but that's NOT the justification...
Also, I don't trust any animal rights websites. Their "facts" are from sources that don't really exist and are horribly skewed!

Sales of white pelts from the babies were outlawed I think some 25 years ago now, following that the Canadian government reduced the quotas to be slaughtered significantly, I think to around 15,000 but since then there has been huge pressure to raise the quotas in part to draw attention away from the extent to which the fishing industry itself has harmed the numbers of cod and to provide them with jobs - jobs they themselves have been responsible for destroying. In addition there has been a rise in demand for the older seal's soft grey skins. In 2004 Norway alone paid £1 million for raw pelts. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/conservation/story/0,13369,1448939,00.html

I understand your concerns about animal rights websites, but there's plenty of coverage in the national press. Plus the IFAW's website I think can be relied upon, they're certainly widely respected.

To me this isn't human vs animal rights it's about treating all living creatures with respect and not as simply resources to drive to extinction, cod or seals.

funiculus

28-03-2006, 21:52

I don't agree with the seal culling, but as far as Morrissey's comments are concerned, I'd wish he'd just shut up. it's good in way because he's making more people aware, but I have so little respect for him (especially after the animal rights activists comments) that I wish he'd keep his opinions to himself
Do you mean his comment on scientists who perform research on animals? If not, which comments? If so... those comments were incredibly foolish. I think sometimes he speaks before thinking, but that DEFINITELY doesn't excuse it. With all the times he's been ill (supposedly that's why he cancels so many concerts) I'm sure he's taken some medication that has been tested on animals.

funiculus

28-03-2006, 21:59

They eat Atlantic cod only at certain times of the year and in certain places. Much of their diet is made up of smaller, fatty fish, like capellin.
Hm, I didn't know that! :)
Sales of white pelts from the babies were outlawed I think some 25 years ago now, following that the Canadian government reduced the quotas to be slaughtered significantly, I think to around 15,000 but since then there has been huge pressure to raise the quotas in part to draw attention away from the extent to which the fishing industry itself has harmed the numbers of cod and to provide them with jobs - jobs they themselves have been responsible for destroying. In addition there has been a rise in demand for the older seal's soft grey skins. In 2004 Norway alone paid £1 million for raw pelts. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/conservation/story/0,13369,1448939,00.html Hm... that IS sad... very very sad. And I do not agree with killing animals for fashion, but this is still not the main issue, I don't think. If it were, I'd be on your side, completely!
I understand your concerns about animal rights websites, but there's plenty of coverage in the national press. Plus the IFAW's website I think can be relied upon, they're certainly widely respected.I just have an aversion to basically all animal rights websites. I prefer to get my facts from direct sources or from websites by scientists (fbresearch.org I think?) because (supposedly) scientists are trained to be blind, basically, and SHOULDN'T be swayed by emotion.

To me this isn't human vs animal rights it's about treating all living creatures with respect and not as simply resources to drive to extinction, cod or seals.
This is true, and I agree. I just don't agree with Morrissey's statement, at all. Killing seals is not really the same as the holocaust... and not playing one concert in Toronto will not save a single seal.

Abstract Unknown Girl

28-03-2006, 22:21

Fair enough if he wants to express his opinion on animal rights etc, but to refuse to even play gigs there, that's so stupid. How does he even know what his fans think about culling anyway? For all he knows, the vast majority of them could be against it too. And even if they weren't, they've still paid to see him play, if he had any respect for his fans he'd have played anyway.

funiculus

28-03-2006, 22:47

Abstract Unknown Girl

29-03-2006, 01:31

He wasn't going to do any concerts in Canada anyway... or, probably he would've just done one, so this isn't a huuuuuuge deal, but it's still fairly silly imho!

If he wasn't going to do any why the hell say 'Ner ner Canada, I'm not playing for you'? How childish.

MSPKYE

29-03-2006, 01:47

well he better rethink and play Canada otherwise he'll have these guys to answer to!

http://meghan.mrks.org/ds/rayfraser.jpg

unwashed and somewhat slightly dazed

29-03-2006, 02:11

That's not ray you idiot, due south went downhill when they got rid of

http://www.geocities.com/elainedues/david1a.jpg

Takk

29-03-2006, 13:12

Well it's part of nature. Animals naturally die of starvation all the time, it's just how the natural system works. There's evidence that fox hunting in the UK can actually increase an area's fox population by increasing the need for vixens to produce cubs; the same is entirely possible in Canada I'm sure.

Yeah, the problem being when we mess with an ecosystem, things are no longer in balance. Sometimes culls are necessary (i don't really know about the canadian example) because left un-checked some populations will get too big at the expense of other organisms. In theory this should lead to a negative feedback, but not necessarily in such a way to restore the balance.

Of course the main reason there aren't any fish left are because we eat them all, it's hardly fair to blame whales or seals!

Abstract Unknown Girl

29-03-2006, 14:48

That's not ray you idiot, due south went downhill when they got rid of

http://www.geocities.com/elainedues/david1a.jpg

Oh don't get me started on the whole Ray V/Ray K is Ray V undercover thing, the confusion! Either way, don't you mock Due South :p

Last Exit

29-03-2006, 19:58

I can see both sides of it, and whilst its great that he's put his views before profit, I don't think he's gone the right way about it. If anything its just so hard to draw the line. Did he refuse to play in the UK when fox-hunting was legal? Has he refused to play Rome where they bull-fight, or Norway the whaling capital? I remember him banning meat from the merchandise stalls and I thought that was a really good move, but he's obviously underestimated his fanbase this time - they'll just pay more to travel!

God love him anyway. :)

unwashed and somewhat slightly dazed

01-04-2006, 00:46

Oh don't get me started on the whole Ray V/Ray K is Ray V undercover thing, the confusion! Either way, don't you mock Due South :p

Due South is currently being repeated on ITV3. I quite enjoyed it when it was on its first run, but I haven't seen it in yeeeeeeeeears, and I've been at uni so no access to that new channel.

I came back and found all these new channels, ITV3, Sky Three! Currently showing Voyager (erg...), hopefully they'll be rerunning TNG soon!

Abstract Unknown Girl

01-04-2006, 01:53

Due South is currently being repeated on ITV3

Haha, oh I'm well aware of that *has been religiously watching it for the past few weeks* :p

MSPKYE

01-04-2006, 02:19

Haha, oh I'm well aware of that *has been religiously watching it for the past few weeks* :p

and even thats an understatement:P

funiculus

01-04-2006, 04:31

Yeah, the problem being when we mess with an ecosystem, things are no longer in balance. Sometimes culls are necessary (i don't really know about the canadian example) because left un-checked some populations will get too big at the expense of other organisms. In theory this should lead to a negative feedback, but not necessarily in such a way to restore the balance.

Of course the main reason there aren't any fish left are because we eat them all, it's hardly fair to blame whales or seals!
Yeah, I was going to say this! We live in a completely "unnatural" system right now, so it's not like we can just expect everything around us to stay natural! ;)

Zinedine_Kilbane

01-04-2006, 14:34

Pamela Anderson is fighting the good fight with him. There's a fucking odd couple if ever there was one.

funiculus

02-04-2006, 23:26

Pamela Anderson is fighting the good fight with him. There's a fucking odd couple if ever there was one.
They had a thanksgiving party together in 2002 or 2003. Do you remember Chloe the turkey? Morrissey looks a little too in love with that turkey, if you ask me!

kiriyama

02-04-2006, 23:39

What a joke, what about the cullings in Alaska? Obviously the american market is too big for him to offend their moralities. New album, new way of gettig attention, will he be saying anything in two weeks time? knowing him, probably not.

I'm against the culling but the only people whose minds he may change are some Morrissey fans who listen to every distorted word he says. How about handing out anti-culling leaflets at his concerts, oh wait, that'll cost him money, can't be having that.

Cheers

Paul

05-04-2006, 00:50

He showed no respect to the fans who bought tickets for the Isle Of Wight Festival, and he's now showing similarly little respect for his Canadian fans. It's a worrying trend.

In all fairness, that never seemned to be his fault, more Sanctuary's.

Fair enough if he wants to express his opinion on animal rights etc, but to refuse to even play gigs there, that's so stupid. How does he even know what his fans think about culling anyway? For all he knows, the vast majority of them could be against it too.

This is a fair point though. Imagine how you'd feel as an anti-seal-culling-Canadian-Morrissey-fan. You'd still just be a little pissed off wouldn't you?

Pamela Anderson is fighting the good fight with him. There's a fucking odd couple if ever there was one.

Oh don't say that, she's paid a hell of a lot of money for that odd couple. It practically made her career.