MP's call for ban on smacking

[sbs]

The government is facing pressure from MPs and peers to ban parents from smacking their children.
Two reports out on Tuesday call for a change in the law in England and Wales, which allows adults to use what is known as reasonable chastisement.

According to the health select committee and the joint committee on human rights, that legal defence has too often been used to excuse violence against children.

Full story here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3015226.stm

Even if you agree with the ban on smacking how much control should the Government have over our lives.......Nanny State and all that!

[rudi just failed]

i hate to sound like a middle-englander or something but...
'never did me any harm'
actually, i go only on the evidence that my nephew is an outofcontrol little twat, and hes never been smacked in his life

[Alexkid]

My mum used to smack me and it BLOODY HURT. She did smack me in the face quite a few times tho, which it a bit wrong I think. Shes apologised for it now though, now that im 20! haha.

I think smacking in temper is unacceptable. But a lot of parents do it. Its too hard to distinguish between a controlled disaplinary smack, and a full on beating. A lot of parents could be punished undeservedly if there was a law banning smacking.

[pretty in pink]

Any sensible adult should know the difference between smacking and violence. I don´t think that banning smacking is going to stop child abuse and violence - the problem is due to something else. Naturally unreasonable smacking is wrong, but I don´t know if banning all smacking will benefit that much. It could turn people´s attention away from bad abuse. And sometimes parents just have to use physical power to calm down a child: if I think what my brother was like sometimes - he used to get these awful fits - it would be stupid to make my parents feel guilty for a few smacks.

[maradona]

I dont recall being smacked, i'm sure it probably happened a few times but its not exactly scarred me for life. Actually i didn't really have a very disciplined upbringing at all, but somehow i was brought up to know right from wrong, to show respect to other people and that my actions had consequences. Trying to get through this idea of personal responsibilty is much more important than disciplining bad behaviour - But then if most adults dont understand the concept of personal responsibility then they are going to have problems bring ingup their kids to undestand.

Actually being read things like Swimmy at bedtime had a much bigger impact on me than not being smacked. It should be the law for parents to read their kids Swimmy before bedtime each night :) Thats the sort of nanny state i like!

But despite saying all this i dont think smacking should be banned - thats not a green light for parents to beat their kids, or even smack them in the face but a tap on the wrist or whatever doesn't do any harm.

[Lover of Outrage]

It's the old seen to be caring shite. It would just be a huge waste of money and like the police have the time to sort out who's been hit and who just doesn't want to go to bed yet.
There are many families who are in need of support where the social services are fully aware and yet get none, so what would they plan to do about it anyway.

Load of old Bollocks!

[rudi just failed]

following on from the whole nanny state thing....
when i was 10 years old my parents considered me to be old enough to be left on my own for a few hours at a time. i was sensible and told to go straight to my neighbours if anything happened. one afternoon this happened and i picked up the phone expecting it to be my brother. it was a double glazing saleswoman. i told her there was noone in at the moment, she called the police and i was taken into care for 3 weeks. and the thing that really pisses me off is im never going to know who she was.

[pretty in pink]

Originally posted by rudi just failed
when i was 10 years old my parents considered me to be old enough to be left on my own for a few hours at a time. i was sensible and told to go straight to my neighbours if anything happened. one afternoon this happened and i picked up the phone expecting it to be my brother. it was a double glazing saleswoman. i told her there was noone in at the moment, she called the police and i was taken into care for 3 weeks.

:eek: Really? I was alone at home after school from the age of seven. And so were most of my friends. It sounds perfectly normal to me. Admittedly we lived in a very peaceful area were everyone knew their neighbours and all that, but still.

[Rachey]

when i was a kid my parents would smack me if i was being especially naughty, the same goes for my sister and it never did me any harm. the threat of it was sometimes enough to control us. my sister used to throw terrible mardies and would get hysterical and simply telling her to behave wasn't enough. providing parents don't so it regularly and aren't violent enough to actually really hurt the child i think it's ok. my mum said she felt guilty afterwards anyway so most reasonable people aren't going to do it a lot anyway. how would the law be enforced though??in america it is now illegal to leave a kid (under 6) alone in the car if you go to pay for petrol, or if your kid is fat it can be taken away from you. personally, i find this ridiculous. if someone's a bad parent then that's terrible and something should be done. but if an adult feels it's necessary to discipline their kid by smacking them, then fine. there's a difference between child abuse and discipline.
rachael

[Irishpunktom]

2 year Old Trys putting something into a socket.
He is smacked

playing with socket = getting hurt

2 year old trys putting something into a socket.
He is told about electricity, how dangerous it is, How he should not be doing this.

Means Nothing to a 2 year old, he trys again
get electrocuted.
Dies.

[swelegant]

This proposed law probably means well (and makes various MPs look good) but i think it would be quite difficult to ban.

I got smacked when i was a kid, it didn't do me any harm. It was mostly done to demonstrate things i shouldn't do in order to be safe -- only crossing the road with my parents, not touching any electrical plugs and the like. I think most people learn best when they see/experience a direct negative consequence to their actions, sometimes words just don't have enough impact. In saying that though, i don't think children should be hit more than once at any time and it should be with the hand and on something squishy, like the bum, so it won't hurt too much.

[Terminal Young Thing]

Originally posted by swelegant
This proposed law probably means well (and makes various MPs look good) but i think it would be quite difficult to ban.

I got smacked when i was a kid, it didn't do me any harm. It was mostly done to demonstrate things i shouldn't do in order to be safe -- only crossing the road with my parents, not touching any electrical plugs and the like. I think most people learn best when they see/experience a direct negative consequence to their actions, sometimes words just don't have enough impact. In saying that though, i don't think children should be hit more than once at any time and it should be with the hand and on something squishy, like the bum, so it won't hurt too much.

What she said.

[Perdita]

What everyone said, really. And I think Pretty in Pink is spot on to distinguish between smacking and proper violence - you don't have to hurt a kid with a smack, because it's all about the shame and the shock.

Stopping smacking won't control child abuse, but it will let a few little gits get away with all sorts. Plus, any really nasty kids out there will be clever about it and start threatening the minute they don't get their way.

I'm so shocked about what happened to you, rudi. I was left to let myself into the house from the age of about eight or nine onwards for an hour or so until mum came home from work twice a week, I can't imagine what's wrong with that situation, in fact I quite liked it.

[JamesyEsquire]

I do think the main reason behind people hitting their child is because it is an easy target. Parents probably wont admit this but the core reason for hitting their child is because it is generally pissing them off and they need to take their anger out on it, which is why you get a punch if you started really annoying anyone superior in strength to you. People have been saying that they just gave the child a little tap and does no harm, how can this be? when i see a child get smacked it cries, it cries because it is in pain. Im am not saying it is not an effective way of teaching a child right and wrong, because it does work, its just that it is illegal to hit an adult but not illegal to hit a child. You have to determine whether or not pain is a suitable method of discipline.

[UEF]

I know a few people that say "It never did me any harm" who are arsey cunts, who overreact to everything.

[Terminal Young Thing]

I did read somewhere that they'd linked extensive smacking with depression in later life...
Thoughts?

[Screaming Daisy]

i think any kind of abuse could lead like extensive smacking. but as long as the parent etc... doen't really hurt the child and they don't hit all the time for really silly things then i don't see the problem.
personally i've lost a lot of respect for my dad because he'd just hit out if he was in a bad mood or had a hard day at work. and when we were smacked if we'd done something naughty we just thought it was because dad was in a bad mood. my mum on the other hand barley never smacked us, she'd talk to us. we only got smacked if we'd done something really naughty or as a last resort. which is how it should be.
stay beautiful

[alexliamw]

I'm shocked by how Daily Mail we all are here. Smacking is useless. People that suggest kids are off the rails because they weren't smacked are absolutely ridiculous. Its debatable whether smacking actually does people harm, but it certainly doesnt do anyone any good. All these groups that campaign for it are the kind of people who treat their children as totally inferior and unable to think for themselves up to the age of about 30.

Also I get the feeling that people who've been smacked want smacking to be allowed to that they get to "get their own back" by inflicting the same on others. I mean obviously they dont think of it like this but I reckon thats whats beneath it. They feel "if I got smacked, why shouldn't other people have to be as well".

Banning smacking won't stop child abuse, but smacking can cause trauma of sorts to kids. Harsh punishment is what makes people rebel in the first place. I know someone with the most liberal parents ever and he never rebelled in any way cos he had nothing to rebel against. If a kid is told something is wrong, they want to do it. If you smack them, they still want to do it, just not when you're looking. Children aren't so stupid that they mistake pain for moral wrong. They might learn an action leads to pain, but it won't mean they "realise" that its morally wrong.

[Lover of Outrage]

Liberal parents yeah they're the sort of people that turn up somewhere with their kids then act like they haven't got any. Letting their kids do as they please knocking into some old dear (no not me!) or getting into a dangerous situation and expecting everyone else to watch out for them. We all need boundaries especially children.
I would avoid smacking as it can become a vicious circle, a natural reaction when angered, but to ban it is pointless a waste of money and resources. Spoilt kids in a fit of temper would be calling while the abused as ever remain silent, and while the social services waste time, money and effort investigating something that never even happened another visit to an at risk child gets missed.

[alexliamw]

By liberal I did not mean that they ignored their children or didn't care if they did wrong :rolleyes:

I meant they do not get upset over small things, have a more relaxed/live and learn attitude and give their child freedom and independence....

[Lover of Outrage]

Yeah they're exactly the people I mean!

[alexliamw]

So you think that's wrong? Giving children freedom/independence/respect/having a relaxed attitude is wrong? :confused: :eek:

[Lover of Outrage]

No I think it's wrong that some children are not taught to respect other people. I find children are being bought up to be very selfish. Children can be led to think that the world revolves around them because their parents act like it does. So many parents run to the beck and call of their kids. I do think children are important but they are part of a family and they should learn to share. I just feel it would make them more balanced less demanding. Probably not explaining myself very well. :)

[alexliamw]

Does hitting them teach them to respect others? Surely it suggests hitting others is OK? How do you explain to a small child that its OK for you to hit them but not for them to hit others?

[Lover of Outrage]

If you read my earlier post I said you should avoid smacking!
I have noticed though that spiteful children are often the ones who have never been smacked, little buggers!.

[Dave]

I say beat the fuck out of the little bastards, teach them discipline and respect.

[Joe]

I think this is going to cause an awful lot of confusion, and I kind of think it's unnecessary. I mean, a smack on a child's bum gives them a kind of warning I suppose, but I think smacking a face is out of order. There are plenty of obnoxious tearaway children, who are probably spoilt rotten, and never smacked. I think this law will bring a drop in dicipline in children - if parents are afraid to smack their children [in public at least] then surely their children will feel they can get away with much more. :rolleyes:

[terminal_young_thing]

Originally posted by Dave
I say beat the fuck out of the little bastards, teach them discipline and respect.


*shakes head* how can anyone justify what you just said?!

[alexliamw]

Hello, terminal_young_thing, I see you're low on posts so you're probably new, get used to Dave, he's a joker, he wouldn't have been totally serious with that.

Also your name might cause confusion with Terminal Young Thing, another user. But welcome :D

(Dave will prob reply now saying he was serious, but dont take that seriously either :) )

[terminal_young_thing]

im not that new really.....just dont get round to posting thats all :)
hmmmmm if this dave was kidding, he has a VERY sick sense of humour.
but hey.....everyones different i guess! :D :D

[alexliamw]

Originally posted by terminal_young_thing
he has a VERY sick sense of humour.


I doubt even Dave would contest that :D

[ginger]

one of the advantages of smacking is that it would take away the defence of reasonable chastisment for parents who beat their children.

As an adult, you are not allowed to hit another adult so how is it ok to hit your child? It all harks back to the idea that children are the property of their parents.

[Dave]

Originally posted by alexliamw
Hello, terminal_young_thing, I see you're low on posts so you're probably new, get used to Dave, he's a joker, he wouldn't have been totally serious with that.

Also your name might cause confusion with Terminal Young Thing, another user. But welcome :D

(Dave will prob reply now saying he was serious, but dont take that seriously either :) )

Assume, as they say, and you will make an ass of u and me both.
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful comments. I will certainly take them into account next time I post.

terminal_young_thing- How can I justify that comment?
Children today, more than ever, display the kind of behaviour that makes the majority of adults livid. Think, if you will, to the trucker who was burnt to death this week in his cab as a result of child arsonists. Children today think they can get away with anything, and why? Because they can. Children won't listen to an intelligent argument as to why they can't- it'd bore them, and they would start fidgeting. Words are not, in the main, something solid that children can identify with "Right" and "Wrong". A good smack is.

Think of it this way. For the first time, you touch a flame. It hurts. You won't do it again. Done.

Then try it this way. You touch a flame. There is no pain. It made so little impact that you will soon forget you ever did it. Even if at the time, someone said "You shouln't be doing that. It isn't fair on other people. Or whatever.

If those childen who burnt the trucker, whether they knew he was there or not, would not have done anything of the sort of they had had some kind of rudimentary discipline instilled in them.

[terminal_young_thing]

good arguement there dave :)
but think about what or how you said it in the message when i started posting.
"I say beat the fuck out of the little bastards, teach them discipline and respect."
"beating the fuck" out of someone is NOT going to show them ANYTHING to do with respect...except NOT to have any for themselves.
i agree that children need to be disciplined and to know the difference from right and wrong, and i single smack would do POSSIBLY.
the wording you used attracted my attention.
beating the crap out of anyone, let alone a child, is NOT going to teach anybody, no mater how od, anything good about respect.
more than the odd smack is going to make the child feel scared to be around whoevers hurting them, make them cry themselves to sleep at night because they cant bear the thought of getting up to another day of the same shit again and again.make them think they deserve to be hit.
i do NOT see how someone can justify thinking its ok for someone to feel like that.

being hit is bad enough right? being hit by a parent can...no, IS worse.
parents are meant to protect you. not be the ones you need to be protected from.surely?
perhaps the occasional smack WOULD do tha job, but someone along the line would abuse that, and their children

[Lover of Outrage]

Originally posted by ginger


As an adult, you are not allowed to hit another adult

Since when?
Sorry just stating a fact.

[Dave]

Originally posted by terminal_young_thing
good arguement there dave :)
but think about what or how you said it in the message when i started posting.
"I say beat the fuck out of the little bastards, teach them discipline and respect."
"beating the fuck" out of someone is NOT going to show them ANYTHING to do with respect...except NOT to have any for themselves.
i agree that children need to be disciplined and to know the difference from right and wrong, and i single smack would do POSSIBLY.
the wording you used attracted my attention.
beating the crap out of anyone, let alone a child, is NOT going to teach anybody, no mater how od, anything good about respect.
more than the odd smack is going to make the child feel scared to be around whoevers hurting them, make them cry themselves to sleep at night because they cant bear the thought of getting up to another day of the same shit again and again.make them think they deserve to be hit.
i do NOT see how someone can justify thinking its ok for someone to feel like that.

being hit is bad enough right? being hit by a parent can...no, IS worse.
parents are meant to protect you. not be the ones you need to be protected from.surely?
perhaps the occasional smack WOULD do tha job, but someone along the line would abuse that, and their children

In a sense, I agree.
Yes a child must be protected, but this should not mean shielded and spoilt. A child must learn right and wrong, and without wishing to be patronising towards them I do not believe that at the age at which they are most impressionable they will be mature enough to understand the concepts, causes and consequences involved in the way that an adult would. You can't expect a young child to fully understand right and wrong the way that we do anymore than you can expect a dog to grow wings and fly away. For this reason they must be shown in a simple way. A system of rewards would encourage greediness- "I'm only doing this to further my own ends" "I will get if I do this rather than that" This would encourage a wholly inapproproprate view of the world and life itself.
A more realistic option is that of punishment. Do this, rather than that, and you will carry on unscathed. Do that rather than this and you will be visited by unpleasantness.
For the child- obey your parents and you can live happily. Fail to and life will not be so happy.
For the adult?- Pay your bills, treat others as you would wish to be treated, and so on. Then you can live happily. Inasmuch as you can truly be happy. Fail to do the above and you will be lonely, friendless and subject to suprise visits by the bailiffs.

I would also argue that your notion of punishment causing the child to "feel scared to be around whoevers hurting them, make them cry themselves to sleep at night because they cant bear the thought of getting up to another day of the same shit again and again.make them think they deserve to be hit." is incorrect. Now that physical punishment is less widespead, perhaps, the re-introduction of it would cause this in children used to the easy life.
However you must remember that for millennia children have lived in total fear of their parents and have gone on to lead normal lives- if they hadn't, it is doubtful that we would be here now. The "what have i done to deserve this" syndrome only occurs when children used to getting their own way push things too far and finally do get properly punished. If they had been taught their limits long before in a way that is simple, striking (in every possible sense) and in no way ambiguous, they would push their parent's patience to the limits and their behaviour would be infinitely better.

*This is for all those people who think Dave is only here to stir up trouble, and for all those people who remember the good old days when Dave still had a vague understanding that he possessed a 'brain'

;)

[terminal_young_thing]

Dave..i for one am sure your not stirring trouble. I think this threads really interesting! :D

“Yes a child must be protected, but this should not mean shielded and spoilt” I totally agree. Children do need to realise that they cant get their own way all the time, but I don’t feel that smacking them will make them realise that. Surely a good telling off would do just as much? If I child is going to learn the lesson, a telling off should be sufficient I feel. If theyre not going to then smacking is gonna be useless anyway.

“A more realistic option is that of punishment” I agree on that too, but I do not think that smacking a child is is suitable form of punishment. You can punish a child by different ways. I don’t think violence is the key in ANY situation, let alone where children are concerned.

“For the child- obey your parents and you can live happily. Fail to and life will not be so happy.
For the adult?- Pay your bills, treat others as you would wish to be treated, and so on.”
If adults should “treat others as you would wish to be treated2 does that mean when they do something wrong they should be smacked? NO. an adult would not put up with that, why should a child?

“The "what have i done to deserve this" syndrome only occurs when children used to getting their own way push things too far and finally do get properly punished.”
No. the “what have I done to deserve this” syndrome occurs when someone cant understand why someone did something. That does no necessarily mean a child whos used to getting their own way. It can take a while for that feeling to set in. personally..it took me 10years to start thinking like that. You sit and take it because you think your in the wrong. It took someone to say to me, “why do you sit and let someone do that?” For me to even start thinking that maybe I didn’t deserve it, but ask me about it and I will still say I deserved it in a way…. but at the time (bearing in mind this was only 4mths ago) all that I thought was I don’t know why its happening, but it must be something to do with me maybe I do deserve it?.then I spoke to someone about it and they make you realise your not to blame and that you DON’T deserve it.then began wondering. And I am DEFINITELY not used to getting what I want. Im used to the opposite.
:rolleyes: :) ;)

o and by the way.."lover of outrage said quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ginger


As an adult, you are not allowed to hit another adult
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since when?
Sorry just stating a fact.*

since a while. you can be arrested for GBH (grevous or however its spelt bodily harm) and other things. its illegal to punch someone. why should children be any different?

[Lover of Outrage]

Actually it's only very recently (not GBH I wasn't refering to that!), check yesterdays report on crime figures. We were talking about smacking not punching children BTW.
Domestic violence in the past was seen just as 'a domestic' unless there were obvious injuries. Also if there is a fight between lads on a Sat. night the police are really not interested. This is fact.

[terminal_young_thing]

i am aware that we were talking of smacking not proper hitting, but i was making the point that some people would abuse the fact that its legal to hit. meaning it would go further than that.....i.e. worse hitting.

and also the fact that if a load of lads are having a scuffle outside the pub and police really arnt bothered doesnt show its legal for these fights..it shows the lax police community we have doesnt it?

thanks for the view tho :) this threads real intresting

[littlebabynothing79]

I am anti any level of violence :rolleyes: This stems from my childhood and the kinda discipline I got from my mum and dad. Some of the things I did sure they were wrong, but I'd often taken the rap for my brother.
It does emotionally scar you as you grow up. I am scared of men completely. I'm very introverted. Silly things like if I do something wrong at work I fear of getting shouted at or hit at..I know this couldnt happen in a million years..unless they wanted a sentence for GBH.
I think discipline is a hard thing to had out...and you have to avoid the line of any form of physical or verbal agression.

[Lover of Outrage]

Originally posted by terminal_young_thing
i am aware that we were talking of smacking not proper hitting, but i was making the point that some people would abuse the fact that its legal to hit. meaning it would go further than that.....i.e. worse hitting.

and also the fact that if a load of lads are having a scuffle outside the pub and police really arnt bothered doesnt show its legal for these fights..it shows the lax police community we have doesnt it?

thanks for the view tho :) this threads real intresting

Noticed you avoided domestic violence, one in four.......

[terminal_young_thing]

Originally posted by Lover of Outrage
Noticed you avoided domestic violence, one in four.......

not quite getting you there lover of outrage
:confused:

[Dancing May Girl]

My dad used to hit me when he felt I was being naughty. He did it the first time, as far as I recall, when I was 6. I wanted to see a programme for children and he wanted to see sports. My dad hit me and he was a very big man at that time. that was his way of dealing with bringing up a child. My dad was usually home every second weekend from when I was born till I was 14. when he lost his job he wanted to "change" me. And then all went wrong. Blue marks was a common thing. my mom tried to help me but I always ended up in fights with him. This was a recuring theme till I moved out when I was 19.

So what did I get from all this? everytime someone raises a hand I duck and move away fast, I have problems with men. I have problems with feelings and trusting people.

We have a law against hitting children in our country but it doesn't work. It is easy to make a law against something but it is a problem if it costs money. So children aren't taken away from the parents because it is too expensive. And people rarely interferes when somebody is hitting there child. There is still this mentality that it is their "right".

[terminal_young_thing]

thanks Greeboina for that. thats what iv been trying to say all the times iv replied but havnt hasd the guts to.
its exactly the same for me...except im still living at home. luckily i got help and its pretty much a memory, but it still is.
i was also tring to say how scared it makes you feel....but obviously didnt do a very good job
sorry guyz :rolleyes: :confused:

[Dancing May Girl]

I still have nightmares about it. The worst thing is that people tend to say to me "get over it. It's the past" but my dad can still scare the shit out of me and I'm 23 now.

I would never hurt a child and I would never hit a grown up.

The good thing is that he has stop hitting me. It helped when I said to him that I would call the police if he did it one more time.

Glad you got help terminal_young_thing!!!

[terminal_young_thing]

Originally posted by Greeboina
I still have nightmares about it. The worst thing is that people tend to say to me "get over it. It's the past" but my dad can still scare the shit out of me and I'm 23 now.



exactly.
its not something that can go away! thats what iv been trying to say.
it changes your whole life.
like greeboina said in her first post, if someone raises a hand then you jump, that gets noticed a lot for me. im a very jumpy person because i used to be so frightened. i wont answer people back much, maybe once then shut up, because im too scared of what theyll do, even if im very good friends with them and know they wouldnt harm me.its still in the back of my mind.
it isnt something you can get over with ease. luckily i have a great set of friends who helped/are helping me through it.
but not everyone has that.........................

[Dancing May Girl]

Originally posted by terminal_young_thing
exactly.
its not something that can go away! thats what iv been trying to say.
it changes your whole life.
like greeboina said in her first post, if someone raises a hand then you jump, that gets noticed a lot for me. im a very jumpy person because i used to be so frightened. i wont answer people back much, maybe once then shut up, because im too scared of what theyll do, even if im very good friends with them and know they wouldnt harm me.its still in the back of my mind.
it isnt something you can get over with ease. luckily i have a great set of friends who helped/are helping me through it.
but not everyone has that.........................

I shout at people and unfortunately I can be very nasty when I argue with people. If I can hurt them before they hurt me it is the best. It's another way of reacting. but I still jump when people raises their hand, even if I walk by strangers I do it.

[terminal_young_thing]

o i hate jumping when i walk past people. they always think theyve hit me and im like no.... im just jumpy

i tend not to shout at people much. i can get angry, but i dont shout when i am. im more of a scary quiet voice with *intelligent* remarks.

"If I can hurt them before they hurt me it is the best." i never do that. im too slow. wish i could tho

[Dancing May Girl]

Originally posted by terminal_young_thing
o i hate jumping when i walk past people. they always think theyve hit me and im like no.... im just jumpy

i tend not to shout at people much. i can get angry, but i dont shout when i am. im more of a scary quiet voice with *intelligent* remarks.

"If I can hurt them before they hurt me it is the best." i never do that. im too slow. wish i could tho

I have a very sharp and acid tongue...

[terminal_young_thing]

o i wish mine was.
mines more......blunt and neutral.
:( :rolleyes: